Work on the H2 and H2R ECU... Finally some facts...

94178 Views 173 Replies 43 Participants Last post by Ryan Hilfiker, Jun 5, 2019

Guhl Motors

Discussion Starter · Feb 7, 2015 (Edited)

I've been reading through this site over the last couple weeks as we start down the long and very tedious journey of defining the code in these new powerful and amazing ECUs. I've seen many posts of guesswork on what is going on with these bikes with many excellent theories. As we progress with our testing, if there is interest, we can post factual information regarding the operation of these bikes. I say factual, because the code does not lie...

Garth posted earlier that the H2 is highly restricted, but left out details of how restricted it really is. It should be no secret that all new street legal bikes have restrictions of some sort. They are there to pass the smog and noise emissions standards. Power makes noise, so to reduce noise, it's basically a larger muffler or less power... Unfortunately, the mufflers are about as big as they can get.

The rev limit of the H2 is ~13000 RPM. The H2R is ~14000 RPM. With centrifugal superchargers, the boost rises with engine speed, so the H2R already has a boost advantage with the extra RPMs.

I believe that the real secret to the restrictions of the H2 are the throttle-by-wire maps. Check out the main (full power) map from the H2 ECU. The x-axis is the accelerator position and the data of the map is the commanded throttle position of the actual throttle plates. As you can see, after 10000 RPM, the throttles close down pretty quickly!

The good news is: It looks like we should be able to correct the rev limits and the throttle-by-wire restrictions.

I'll post more information as we move forward...

Enjoy!

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SilverbirdH2

· #2 · Feb 7, 2015 (Edited)

Just badazz...Thanks SOOO much for your work with this,and your sharing of it.MY ecu will be coming to you very shortly after I get mine...should be late Feb or March.Again...THANK YOU

May I ask...just to clarify something here...can you approximate the HP output at 13K?I know EVERYONE would like to know this.If the H2 continues to climb to 13K(I'm assuming you will be able to raise the factory limit),it'll keep building power till the limiter hits?Or do you think it'll drop off before that.Considering what you said about the SC building more power as the rpms increase.Probably a no brainer.I know really nothing about SC's except the basic stuff.

THIS is SO cool...having you personally test and post...and saying..."Enjoy"...way cool

Cliff Secord

· #3 · Feb 7, 2015

Guhl Motors said:
I've been reading through this site over the last couple weeks as we start down the long and very tedious journey of defining the code in these new powerful and amazing ECUs. I've seen many posts of guesswork on what is going on with these bikes with many excellent theories. As we progress with our testing, if there is interest, we can post factual information regarding the operation of these bikes. I say factual, because the code does not lie...

Garth posted earlier that the H2 is highly restricted, but left out details of how restricted it really is. It should be no secret that all new street legal bikes have restrictions of some sort. They are there to pass the smog and noise emissions standards. Power makes noise, so to reduce noise, it's basically a larger muffler or less power... Unfortunately, the mufflers are about as big as they can get.

The rev limit of the H2 is ~13000 RPM. The H2R is ~14000 RPM. With centrifugal superchargers, the boost rises with engine speed, so the H2R already has a boost advantage with the extra RPMs.

I believe that the real secret to the restrictions of the H2 are the throttle-by-wire maps. Check out the main (full power) map from the H2 ECU. The x-axis is the accelerator position and the data of the map is the commanded throttle position of the actual throttle plates. As you can see, after 1000 RPM, the throttles close down pretty quickly!

The good news is: It looks like we should be able to correct the rev limits and the throttle-by-wire restrictions.

I'll post more information as we move forward...

Enjoy!

I like the disclaimer 'should'. Wish you the best of luck. However I do wonder; after you bypass the safety measures imposed by the ECU, how are you going to account for the increased mechanical needs of intake and exhaust? Does the bike have an 'e-cam' that will add lift and duration? (that was a sarcastic remark). How will you lower the compression in the cylinders to deal with the added boost so the motor doesn't blow a head gasket? What about the extra clutch plate that's going to be needed to put that power down? And lastly, how are you going to re-program the traction control to keep up with the new program?

Not trolling. Other than the e-cam wise crack, I'm deadly serious.

SilverbirdH2

· #4 · Feb 7, 2015 (Edited)

"The rev limit of the H2 is ~13000 RPM."...you did read this,yes?Now add 1.5 to 2X's the stress of THAT power output...I think she'll handle blasts to 13 most easily.All the parts are there.You certainly are trying,I'll give ya that.You apparently have NO clue about Don.Or his abilities.Either that or you simply could care less about dissing him.If so...you might want to stop right now with the disrespect you're throwing at him.VERY not okay here.

First it was 'Kawasaki"...now Don Guhl?.Cheap shots man...very.

BTW..the 'restrictions'(of rpms) were clearly addressed with Don's post about Emissions and noise...NOT about engine damage.There won't be any.SHEESH.You ARE a troll...Everything good...you knock down..what else COULD you be?

GoFaster

· #5 · Feb 7, 2015

First ... Welcome! Google Maps says it's 679 km from where I am, to where you are. I'll be making that trip at some point!

Looks like my intuition was correct ... it is being restricted simply by shutting the throttles. The differing rev limit is an interesting point with regards to the boost pressure ... the difference in boost pressure could simply be accounted for by rev limit only, without changing any of the mechanical parts!

Not opening the throttles all the way below 7000 rpm is probably a driveability thing - on my zx10r I tried taking the secondary throttles out as some folks on the internet suggested, but eventually found that it ran better with them in.

Will be watching with interest!

Cliff Secord

· #6 · Feb 7, 2015

I also thought this bike was not throttle by wire.

Have you considered Kawasaki may have made the restrictions mechanical like they did on so many of their other bikes? For example on the 12R; all the mapping in the world couldn't make the restricted throttle bodies flow enough air to break 200. Once you swapped them out for larger units it was no sweat but it took some time to figure out. Do you think Kawasaki would be devious enough to not warn you that re-mapping the bike will cause rapid, horrifying, irreversible damage to the motor they intentionally knee-capped?

Cliff Secord

· #7 · Feb 7, 2015 (Edited)

SilverbirdH2 said:
"The rev limit of the H2 is ~13000 RPM."...you did read this,yes?Now add 1.5 to 2X's the stress of THAT power output...I think she'll handle blasts to 13 most easily.All the parts are there.You certainly are trying,I'll give ya thatYou apparently have NO clue about Don.Or his abilities.If so...you might want to stop right now with the disrespect you're throwing at him.

If you look closer at that map it stops making power entirely at 10,500rpm.

And why is it you pick and choose the 'facts' you retain? What happens when the 1.5-2x power claim lands in the same category as the rest of the lies they told? They also said 'the motor'. Doesn't mean the head gaskets are designed to withstand that, or the clutch.

As for respect; you only seem to respect people who tell you things you want to hear. It's a two way street.

SilverbirdH2

· #8 · Feb 7, 2015

YOU look closely at what Don said about the RPMs limiting.Geez...even I can see the limiter is stopping the boost...among other things that Don said.

I've seen you before.I hate to admit it...but I'm changing my position here about you not being allowed.

I say...a ban is appropriate.Sorry.

Cliff Secord

· #9 · Feb 7, 2015

SilverbirdH2 said:
YOU look closely at what Don said about the RPMs limiting.Geez...even I can see the limiter is stopping the boost...among other things that Don said.

I've seen you before.I hate to admit it...but I'm changing my position here about you not being allowed.

I say...a ban is appropriate.Sorry.

Ban me? Is it because I don't agree with you, because I don't say things that make you feel good or because you lack the experience necessary to be part of a technical conversation that is based in reality? I think maybe you don't understand enough about how a blown motor works to understand what I'm saying and that is causing you some frustration.

Why not block me rather than keep whining about the facts you don't like? You have the link or you want me to send it to you?

45moe

· #10 · Feb 7, 2015 (Edited)

Lets vote him off for good. If his trolling chases away the people that have the facts, he really needs to get shown the door.

Reactions: 3

ninja boy

· #11 · Feb 7, 2015

Welcome Guhl ...... ahhhhhh a breath of fresh air !!!!!

Your input and knowledge will be invigorating. Please, please
do not respond to member H2R.

Thanks again my friend.

Reactions: 5

SilverbirdH2

· #12 · Feb 7, 2015 (Edited)

Yup...I hope no one was thinking my above posts were directed at Don.They were directed at H2R(after his stupid an disrespectful comments about Don's work so far)...H2R is now on my ignore list.I'm feeling better already

And I also apologize to Don.I'm sorry this H2R bonehead offended you...if he did.Thanks for posting Don.

Reactions: 3

45moe

· #13 · Feb 7, 2015

Its great reading posts with him not there. I just wish he could not see any posts from the people that blocked him.

Reactions: 1

ninja boy

· #14 · Feb 7, 2015

I hate to say it, but this guy is an annoying, F---kin, FREAK !!!!

Reactions: 3

SilverbirdH2

· #15 · Feb 7, 2015

45moe said:
Its great reading posts with him not there. I just wish he could not see any posts from the people that blocked him.

He asked for it.Now he'll just have to respond to himself.The reading of our positive posts are gonna totally drive him KOO KOO.Not that he isn't already

Never realized before the actual FUN it is using this ignore functionLOL.

shotgun15

· #16 · Feb 7, 2015

Thank you Don for showing us the way!!!!!

Those of us who have ACTUAL experience with your services had no doubt you would make this happen.

I am very pleased with the improvements on my Guhl flashed 14R.

You can rest assured myself and many others will be sending H2 ECU's your way!

Reactions: 1

Brig10r

· #17 · Feb 7, 2015

H2R said:
I like the disclaimer 'should'. Wish you the best of luck. However I do wonder; after you bypass the safety measures imposed by the ECU, how are you going to account for the increased mechanical needs of intake and exhaust? Does the bike have an 'e-cam' that will add lift and duration? (that was a sarcastic remark). How will you lower the compression in the cylinders to deal with the added boost so the motor doesn't blow a head gasket? What about the extra clutch plate that's going to be needed to put that power down? And lastly, how are you going to re-program the traction control to keep up with the new program?

Not trolling. Other than the e-cam wise crack, I'm deadly serious.

H2R. I don't pretend to know anything about the technical stuff written here but I'm hoping to read and learn so I welcome you're questions which should stimulate the debate and lead to further explanations.
However, you seem to have upset people again by the way in which you challenged the post.
Why didn't you write it like this ....

Hi GUHL thanks for the informative post, it's good to see some factual information that we can all have a look at.
You're widely accepted as an expert with ECU's and I"m sure you'll be able to crack it and release loads of extra power.
However, I do have some concerns about where that leaves us once you've bypassed the 'safety measures'. Specifically, the increased mechanical needs of the intake and exhaust.
What are your views on how to lower the compression in the cylinders to deal with the added boost so the motor has less chance of blowing a head gasket ?
I also would have thought that an extra clutch plate would be needed to keep the power down and surely the Traction Control would need a re-progam ?
Do you have any thoughts and/or experience on the mechanical implications of an ECU change ?

Don't you think that sounds better

Less insulting and more healthy debate ?
.......... just a thought ........ just my thought

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OOgnirts

· #18 · Feb 7, 2015 (Edited)

I would like to stand up for h2r a little bit. My previous dislike of his posts was due to his personal attacks. He seems to have toned those down in his latest posts. I like his counter points and that he raises concerns. Yes, he is repetitious in his negativity, but we also have folks who are repetitious in their incredible positivity.

I, like others, await the facts and the bikes before final judgement.

Don great to see you on the thread. I grew up in Ephrata and love the area. I will be seeing you soon.

Reactions: 1

garth285

· #19 · Feb 7, 2015

Hey guhl. What was that one snowmobile that with just a reflash they go from 170 to 270hp no problem? If that's not a great example of how restricted they can make something idk what is.

H2r seems like he's caught up on this engine not being able to last with a .2 difference in compression or different cams which could possibly be less aggressive? Who knows.

We will find out how much power these bikes will make soon!

Reactions: 1

Somefun

· #20 · Feb 7, 2015 (Edited)

45moe said:
Lets vote him off for good. If his trolling chases away the people that have the facts, he really needs to get shown the door.

I vote yes. I'm tired of hearing negative bull ****.....Don G is a great guy and has helped me may times with my bikes and flashin the ECUs.....he's a stand up guy for sure! Thanks Don

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