[STRADALE]

No idea what they're saying but VERY COOL video to watch of an H2R (riding a wheelie) vs. R1M vs. S1000RR

Wonder what their Dyno results showed.

 

[BobC]

About wheelies, as I understand it: The Kawasaki Traction Control is not meant to be an anti-wheelie device. It just so happens that under certain conditions it will limit a wheelie. Strong acceleration for example, when the wheel speeds front to rear fall outside the limits for the selected TC level. Beware though, this is not what the KTRC is meant for and while it may react differently in settings 1, 2 and 3 you have to be vigilant and ready to bring the front end down yourself.

The Bosch IMU on the other hand, as used on the new ZX-10R, is an anti-wheelie control with it's 5-axis inertial measurement which gives it orientation awareness.

 

[rhody]

It is obvious from the two segments (time 5:50+, and over 10 minutes) of the H2R doing a wheelie on the long straight, that that the throttle control needed to ride it is incredible, on, off the power at least 3 to 4 times a second and the rear wheel is squirming from side to side. Compared to a regular wheelie on say a BMW S1000R you can get away with on and off the gas about once a second. No margin for error here because you are attempting to regulate that supercharged thrust very quickly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCa-SoIVyoA

Watch the wheelie control of the rider on the BMW, leisurely on/off the throttle because the power does not build at the same rate as the H2, H2R.

Rhody...

 

[craigeclark]

I can confirm that TC 1+ does not allow the bike to flip backwards. Wish I had it on video... you would have seen several things. 1. the bike was almost vertical 2. My hand slipped and I pulled the throttle right to the maximum...now I was really vertical! 3. My cell phone flew out of my jeans pocket. I Literally thought I was going to write my bike off and I still owe a balance of 29gs.

This also reminded me of when my wife and I were on the my 2014 zx14r and we took off at a set of lights with a Lamborghini. We were on the back wheel threw 1st gear to 4 th. And due to the rear weight of the passenger the bike would not stay on 2 wheels. Luckily I had a corbin seat with the backrest for the wife or she would have flown right off the back.

May I add I'm not a wheelie guy. Sometimes the front end lifts a little but what happened tonight I'm still trembling over.

SO KTRC definitely has some sort of anti wheelie flip.

 

[BobC]

I can confirm that TC 1+ does not allow the bike to flip backwards. Wish I had it on video...

SO KTRC definitely has some sort of anti wheelie flip.

No it doesn't and that's not what KRTC is for, you were lucky and shouldn't rely on it to stop a wheelie. Read my post above.

 

[craigeclark]

I was not lucky...from experience I can confirm, once again, that you cannot flip the bike in +1 traction mode while doing a wheelie. End of story.

 

[SilverbirdH2]

I tried mine in KTRC 1+...IDK...it certainly FELT like it was gonna keep climbing...I didn't want to like...find out.Not on this bike.You may have just been very lucky and the stars may have been aligned somewhere just right.Mine keeps climbing at well less than full throttle.In KTRC 1+.In fact,I didn't feel ANY difference between KTRC 'off' and 1+.None at all.

I'm very glad you pulled it off....very.

 

[craigeclark]

I'm looking at my bike right now and the only other explanation I could think of would be the ugly rear mud guard stopped me from going all the way?? So maybe I stand corrected. Looks like my license plate is bent at the bottom. Yikes

 

[rapidroy1]

It sounds like you were just a hair away from having your bike planted on your chest.

 

[Kawiguy454]

I think you both may be right ^^^. And the lack of definite technical specs of the KTRC system is not helping clear up our understanding. If we put ourselves into the designer role of KTRC system and we know that on this system all we have is ability to measure front and rear wheel speeds. Then all 9 different mode levels break down into wheel speed differential envelopes. The variable elements the system has to deal with are tire traction, road surface grip, current rotational speed and rider throttle position etc...

An example of how you both may be right is say KTRC is +1 and you're doing 6k rpms in 1st gear but not accelerating. You hammer WOT (BC you've gone mental!) and the front wheel jumps off the ground. Now IF the rear wheel has solid traction the bike is rotating back around the axis of the rear axle. The rear wheel speed sensor sees an increase in speed and some slippage ...guess what the front wheel speed sensor sees? Because the frame is rotating back the front wheel sensor will see this as additional rotation along the axis of the front wheel or at least the wheel does not appear to be slowing because its off the ground. The end result is the bike may go over the top because the sensors don't deviate enough from each other for KTRC to intervene.

The other example is same +1 KTRC 6K rpms NOT accelerating but in 3rd gear. You hammer WOT ( you're not mental this time) And because you have much higher wheel speed and a taller gear the wheel lifts off much more more slowly. And the effect of the frame rotating back is a much lower percentage of overall wheel speed. Continued acceleration of the rear wheel and immediate deceleration of the front wheel at lift off and the KTRC just may have enough time to sense a large enough differential to intervene and keep it from going over.

The main difference between the two is TIME. The lower the KTRC setting the looser the wheel speed differential envelope and the more TIME will elapse after front wheel lifts before KTRC intervenes. This is a simplistic example so when you put all the variables in play you get results that can VARY so no one setting is the be all end all hands down perfect WHEELIE setting. KTRC is NOT a wheelie control program it is intended for powering out of turns so be careful.

The link below has some KTRC system info about "Predictive KTRC" and newer "Inertial measurement unit" which may well hold a 6" wheelie down an entire 1/4 mile drag strip with any old schmo driving it.
https://www.kawasaki-cp.khi.co.jp/technology/chassis/tech_imu_e.html

 

[SilverbirdH2]

"just may have enough time to sense a large enough differential to intervene"...yep...I think this IS it.The bike lifts so quickly at certain situations that the calibration for a particular setting just isn't quick enough to intervene.It's not designed to stop a wheely.Though it can intervene and the result ends up being.."minimal wheel lift" .Ktrc in '1' will not stop the bike from going all the way over.I mean...depending on the time factor of the slowing of the front/slipping of the rear.If both are occurring simultaneously,then the intervention activates quicker.I have NO doubts my H2 will totally flip over in Ktrc 1.I can feel how it keeps pulling in RPMS as it starts the lift.I tried 2 also...it activated and intervened when the front began to lift...stopping the front end by cutting ignition.I could NOT get a wheely to happen of more than a few inches.These videos of guys taking off and the front lifting momentarily...I wonder...'are they staying on the gas?'

I happened to 'accidently' shift into 2nd one day out riding while the front was up in a 1st gear lift.Surprizingly...it remained 'up' and settled back down gently after a few seconds.I'd never shifted like that before on any bike...let alone one so prone to lifting as this one.It was a wakeup call for sureLOL


"you were lucky and shouldn't rely on it to stop a wheelie"...this is correct.It won't in 1 or 1+.
2 and up...it will stop wheelies.But that's no fun.It also cuts the ignition with full on launches.Like in 1st and hammering it at a low forward speed.

 

[Supercharged]

This is not going to get resolved as different riders with different bikes in different countries will get different results .
What I can tell you is my bike has always been set on 2 and without doubt I saved it from flipping myself .

I'm sure some of you will read this and think I'm exaggerating and it just lifter two or three feet , all I can say is trust me I know what I'm talking about and you have been warned .

 

[SilverbirdH2]

LOL...the one thing regarding these lofts...it's not a normally aspirated motor(DUH).Any rise in rpms at any point(which it continues to do in the gas)will produce very strong HP and torque values.It can vault into a lift and continue quickly.(as we all know ).Guys that have learned from other bikes how to control this effect can successfully deal with this jolting of power.Someone like me...I have a hard time controlling it...I mean...yeah,I can let off the gas...but I really strive to get a smooth drop(which I'm getting better and better at).KTRC 1+ I've found works very well at taming the suddeness of the lift,and also the lowering.I should say...it's my throttle inputs that are 'taming' the power initially...and this setting does activate soon enough to feel confident during this.It's also allowed me to get the front back down smoothly.Without having to close the throttle.I'm still not comfortable using the rear brake to break the lift effect.But I'm determined to get this down.So I'll keep trying.I've been practicing these lofts now for several months.With different KTRC settings and such.I'd like to be able to turn the KTRC off at some point and be in full control of this.But I'm just not ready yet.

Then comes 2nd...another round of learning

Got lucky again today though...pulled past like three cars in the outside lane...cranked er up to over a ton while passing.There he was..Highway Patrol coming in the oncoming lane.I slowed immediately.I glanced in my mirrors...nothing,then I saw his brake lights come on(he was leading a group of cars).I gassed it...HARD.Stayed in it as long as possible till I could make my left turn into the bypass.Layed into it all the way...Went through the first roundabout...I'm good...can't see him anywhere.I powered out and layed into her again...still no sign back there.Got into the second roundabout...all good...then I see him back there...lights flashin.This was it...I had to pull over.He rolled up behind me...came out and said'you were goin a bit fast passin those cars back there'...I'm thinkin...'oh shiite...I'm totally busted'...he ran my license...I just got a speeding ticket 6 months ago.
He comes back...a young guy...and hands me my license.He says...'I know you were goin faster than the 81 I clocked you at...I only had my rear radar goin'...I said..'yeah...I was...I don't pass vehicles at 'regular' accelerated speeds...I'm a bit gunshy when it comes passing...too many close calls'......he says..'yeah,I know your bike is built for speed'...I apologized and said I'd slow down.I asked him..."so your not giving me a ticket then?"...he says...'nah...just a warning'.I thanked him again...he was totally cool and civil.It was a good day today

 

[Supercharged]

Then comes 2nd...another round of learning

If I were you I would be using 2nd to learn in , even a 1998 R1 comes up super quick in 1st gear .
It will give you more time to react to a rapid climb and the extra speed is also helpful .

 

[SilverbirdH2]

You know...I did try doing that.It wasn't the same.I mean...I need to get this 1st gear power deal down.I don't 'try' to wheely in 2nd.Well...not too much anyway

But I think I can see what you're talking about.I'll try it some more...in 2nd.Thanks Super...appreciate your comments and such.

 

[STRADALE]

Once I'm in second I'm good, can ride the wheelies pretty well and the bike settles down to earth w/ the KTRC. My problem is getting away from a stop/ light w/ my buds in 1st, w/ stage 2 it's almost unrideable getting into the gas. It really feels like the KTRC doesn't work as well in first, like there's not enough difference in the front and rear wheel speed for the system to react fast enough, dunno. I hate riding the clutch but probably what I need to do more of in 1st or even better go practice w/ the KLCM.....This thing was a hairy beast stock but now it's on roids and grew huge fangs and claws grrrrr!!

 

[thebu383]

Stradle did you upgrade the clutch or still on the stock one?

 

[Kawiguy454]

+1 on the KLCM for take offs. Would be nice to hear from someone that drags that has used it.. Just a guess but its possible that the KLCM uses different software algorithms more tailored to a straight up drag race that's more able to deal with the first gear quick lift.

 

[STRADALE]

Stradle did you upgrade the clutch or still on the stock one?

Stock.

 

[SilverbirdH2]

It seems to me anyway that if you ride this bike as intended...a road bike...the clutch is more than capable of lasting and holding up.I don't see why not.Now KLCM take offs on a regular basis MAY shorten the clutch components life.Or Drag Race takeoffs...yes.But for regular riding and power wheelies and such...I think it will last a long time.Assuming the power wheelies and hard takeoffs are not being done feathering the clutch and causing it to overheat and all.I may be full of it though

I'm 'guessing' that KLCM is there to reduce the clutch lever feathering and slip.Among the other benefits of it.