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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Forgive me in advance for bringing up this topic that may have been debated in the past. I thought that it deserves it's own thread because I'm still a bit unclear on why there is such strong opinions one way or the other. So, I'll start with my tuning strategy.

I purchased the FlashTune kit some time ago to deristrict the H2 and to slightly raise the rev limiter. I didn't make ignition timing changes, I didn't play with the fueling, nor did I touch the injector proportioning. I am aware that the FlashTune kit is very capable of handling all of those changes. I have never been a fan of repeatedly overwriting the ECU, and I think that has to do with my IT background. Repeatedly overwriting a disk or memory brings wear and tear that can ultimately result in loss of data in the IT world and shortens the life of hardware. With that said, my strategy has been "Flash it and Forget it".

I chose the PCV for ease of tuning in that, if my AFR is off, I won't have to repeatedly flash the ECU to make fueling adjustments. Just connect the USB cable to make the changes and your done. Having the PCV allows the dyno operator to make the fueling changes in real time without having to shut things down for a reflash. This was my primary reason I guess, for going PCV.

I recently went all in on PC. I picked up an AutoTune, POD300, and the Secondary fuel module. After having my custom maps made (I have about 8 now for different setups and different fuels), I can now just hook up the AutoTune which will make minor fueling adjustments as the weather changes. I can literally pull over to the side of the road or after a session on the track and accept the Fuel Trims with my Samsung S7 Smartphone with the PowerCommander app.

For me, this is the easiest setup. However, I still wonder if I'm missing something. I know lots of you prefer to just keep reflashing. Aside from cost, can you guys shed some light on why it's better to reflash to make changes? Before you answer, please know, that I am aware of the more accurate fueling paramaters of the flash software, but I'm not convinced that it's that earth shattering of a difference. You've seen my dyno graphs and I have some of the best torque curves that have been posted on the web....... all done with PCV.

So I just wanted to open this discussion just so I can understand other opinions a bit better.


I wanted to also bring up a discussion on Fuel Injector Proportioning. I was recently advised by a very very knowledgeable source that the injectors should share the load 50/50. I have seen this done. I have also seen flash files for an H2R that show 80/20. The stock H2 is about 90/10 and 80/20 depending on the RPM range. I am reluctant to go 50/50 but I'm not sure if my reasoning is grounded in logic. My guess is that the secondary injectors would allow the fuel to atomize better since it has a longer distance to travel to the combustion chamber. However, I like the idea of the primary injectors carrying most of the load and all of the fuel NOT being atomized. I like this for the possible Combustion cooling effect of the unburned fuel. I'm not a science or engineering major but microscopic droplets of unburned fuel might have better cooling properties than a fully atomized mist (pouring cold water on your head vs going to an room with air conditioning - Water provides immediate relief vs the AC which takes time to bring your body temp back down).

Somebody set me straight on this please. I tend to overthink these sort of things but I'd like to hear feedback from some of you accomplished tuners.
 

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Well, I will take a stab. Once a certain performance level is desired, the simpler way is always the better way, for the elimination of factors that can go wrong. The technology we see and use in these machines is trickle down, we know where it comes from. In the highest levels of motorsport they direct flash ecus for adjustment and use data loggers, not dynos, for fuel map adjustment that is time and condition specific. The fuel metering is more linear and able to be more finely adjusted within the flash, this will produce a cleaner tune and a faster lap time. I have seen zero degredation in performance on a zx-14r ecu that has been flashed literally hundreds of times. So the elimination of piggybacks, because the job can be more finely acheived with the flash, and because the flash eliminates the need for acessories that can be weakspots. I have seen many powercommanders 'go bad', and need replacing. Would that cause catastrophic results in an application involving such a powerful forced induction application? I dont know, but I will be direct flashing me ecu. For much less than the price of a pcv and the autotune setup and still needing a flash for unlock purposes, and then a dyno to triple check and adjust, a full flash kit and data logging setup can be purchased through woolich. Thus accomplishing the task more efficiently, with a finer level of fuel control and adjustment, and less equipment to fail at high rpm, high load, critical temp applications.
As for fuel load on injectors. Its impossible to make a blanket statement like 'injectors should be set 50/50'. For what specific application? AND for what intake velocity and iap? Injector load is applications and intake/combustion chamber efficient specific. I leave the duty cycle to the engineers that designed those parts to work in conjunction with each other. Only when i notice a shortfall or a fueling deficiency, do I look at changing injector loads to clean up any 'flat' spots.
Just my 2c sir. Saw your question, it and the answers recieved interest me as well. Thank you for bringing up a great discussion point. Cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well, I will take a stab. Once a certain performance level is desired, the simpler way is always the better way, for the elimination of factors that can go wrong. The technology we see and use in these machines is trickle down, we know where it comes from. In the highest levels of motorsport they direct flash ecus for adjustment and use data loggers, not dynos, for fuel map adjustment that is time and condition specific. The fuel metering is more linear and able to be more finely adjusted within the flash, this will produce a cleaner tune and a faster lap time. I have seen zero degredation in performance on a zx-14r ecu that has been flashed literally hundreds of times. So the elimination of piggybacks, because the job can be more finely acheived with the flash, and because the flash eliminates the need for acessories that can be weakspots. I have seen many powercommanders 'go bad', and need replacing. Would that cause catastrophic results in an application involving such a powerful forced induction application? I dont know, but I will be direct flashing me ecu. For much less than the price of a pcv and the autotune setup and still needing a flash for unlock purposes, and then a dyno to triple check and adjust, a full flash kit and data logging setup can be purchased through woolich. Thus accomplishing the task more efficiently, with a finer level of fuel control and adjustment, and less equipment to fail at high rpm, high load, critical temp applications.
As for fuel load on injectors. Its impossible to make a blanket statement like 'injectors should be set 50/50'. For what specific application? AND for what intake velocity and iap? Injector load is applications and intake/combustion chamber efficient specific. I leave the duty cycle to the engineers that designed those parts to work in conjunction with each other. Only when i notice a shortfall or a fueling deficiency, do I look at changing injector loads to clean up any 'flat' spots.
Just my 2c sir. Saw your question, it and the answers recieved interest me as well. Thank you for bringing up a great discussion point. Cheers!

Thanks Niobium. Your response makes perfect sense about fine tuning and the limiting accessories at the highest levels of racing where they use data-loggers etc. I think that for the recreational rider without a pit crew (lol), that the ease of use of a Piggyback is more than adequate.

I totally did not consider the possibility of PCV being a point of failure. Great point.

Can the Woolich Data Logger make realtime fueling changes? Or is a re-flash always required? I think FlashTune now has something to that effect.

Regarding injector load proportioning, well, in all fairness I will probably ask him to elaborate but was curious if anyone here has heard that before and understood at length if that would be the ideal setup.
 

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Yessir, you are correct, the wooly setup does require a reflash everytime a change is made. Which does require me to pay extremely close attention to the cleanliness and upkeep of my harness for the ecu and for the interface connections etc. I keep all harnesses in ziploc bags with a small packet of 'anti moisture' or 'desicant', as its called. They sell those little packets online for dirt cheap. And I lubricate the harness connections with a high quality dielectric spray that I spritz onto a q-tip, then very gently touch all connections with the q-tip. I have never had a harness failure due to corrosion or moisture, 'knock on wood'! :)
 

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So much 'mis-information' , marketing, trolling, ignorance and just plain BS about this topic these days.

We have sold thousands of Power Commanders in the last few years alone... we get told they are "bad" all of the time - how many actually are? Perhaps 2-3 per year, and I will bet dollars to donuts the bike had a recent trip to wishy-washy and for a 2200 PSI bath. PCV's are inexpensive, and certainly do not meet OEM standards for weatherability... this I will admit.

Do ECU's need to be flashed these days, MOST DEFINITELY. But most tuners can get themselves lost and in a mountain of trouble before they know it, joe average's head will spin at the options available.

Point of failure?! You can accidentally kill your bike in a hurry with today's ECU flashing technology - a bad power commander means you need to remove it from your bike and drive home. GTFO of here with that crap.

Advanced tuning, like matching the injectors, is very useful in high powered today's dry nitrous applications. Would it help with a bunch more boost, long term operation etc. Probably, see your local professional tuner for more info.

I have yet to see anything out perform our fuel mapping level accuracy on the dyno, then proven on the race track using our tuning methods utilizing a model 250I dynojet dyno and a power commander. We have the ability to use any tools or options we desire...

A logical combination of both provides the best of both worlds, IMO. A quality flash unlocks the handcuff's binding the OEM's and a Power Commander gives the operator the flexibility to tune for changing weather, swap fuel types, obtain superior fuel mileage and a host of other advantages, all in seconds, from a computer, or a phone app. Some companies will even provide maps for free :D

My 2 cents,

Brock
Brocks Performance
 

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We have sold thousands of Power Commanders in the last few years alone... we get told they are "bad" all of the time - how many actually are? Perhaps 2-3 per year, and I will bet dollars to donuts the bike had a recent trip to wishy-washy and for a 2200 PSI bath. PCV's are inexpensive, and certainly do not meet OEM standards for weatherability... this I will admit.

Do ECU's need to be flashed these days, MOST DEFINITELY. But most tuners can get themselves lost and in a mountain of trouble before they know it, joe average's head will spin at the options available.
- 2-3 failing a year is a pretty big risk with an almost 30k machine once taxes title and licensing is all done in most states. I would like the hardware that is supporting my machines tune, and my life at 200+ mph, to at least meet oem standards. But I am silly that way
- And if a pcv goes bad and you can just unplug it and go home, then what was all the warnings and blather about needing the correct custom developed map in the pcv in the first place? Again, large risk with an expensive machine.
- And if the justification for us not to flash our own machine is 'the options would make our head spin', and basically that we the riders, aren't smart enough to do it, well, forgive me please if I give it the 'ole college try myself.
- And if you are fully capable and confident tuning by any method that you like, why is your flashing contracted out to Don Guhl, whom will openly state that a pcv is not needed for most flashes, that he has fuel map adjustments available for some systems and applications simply upon request?

I am just curious?

These machines and most modern sportbikes such as the zx-10 and bmw s1000, and the '17 h2 are using 6-axis inertia momentum units tied to both accelerative and decelerative systems, this technology came to us lucky riders from development and use in moto gp and other venues. If I walked up to Valentino Rossi's moto gp bike from a year past at a press event, and saw a pcv hangin off of it, I would throw up in my mouth. Or imagine seeing an F1 car on display in person and seeing a pcv..., the laughter echoes.

I dont have a dog in the hunt, I dont sell pcvs or represent woolich or do anything but ride. But I sure aint afraid to learn, and data log tuning was about 500 times simpler than I thought for the Zx-14R once Anthony walked me through it. Took about a 30 minute phonecall to really get a solid grasp on the process. Within a week of riding and mapping, which was a lot of fun to learn and actually do, the tune was fantastic and smooth and has ran flawlessly for over 42,000 miles. Many many track days and two valve adjustments, and forty oil changes. All done by my stupid muddled hands.
 

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The exact same make and model number O2 sensor that is used in a dynojet 250i, is the sensor that anyone can purchase and use for their own data logging. The exact same sensor....
This is the sensor that delivers the information a tuner on the dyno RELIES on for his mapping. He cant map without it. And of course he uses the artificial rolling resistance of the dyno.... artificial..., and data logging uses YOU, riding your own machine..., your way, on your roads or at your track....
It almost seems like it might be a better way??? I dont know, but I wonder what the guys at the highest level where they develop these high piston speed machines do??? Oh wait... we know what they do...
 

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And when we flash our machines and install that sexy brocks full system, we disonnect an O2 sensor, and in the flash we disable said sensor and its function. Well, its function is in IAP cycle mapping and sampling. So..... if kawi employs such a system in place and a sensor that they provide on a stock machine that they are willing to license and warranty for up to 4 years of use and abuse in stock config with said sensor and its function in place, well then, a sensor driven mapping system must be reliable. The factory uses it. Dyno's use a high quality O2 sensor to drive same mapping...
Hmm...
Again, Im just a dumb throttle jockey, but my spider sense is tingling or something.
 

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Same sensor the pcv autotune uses as well, but the autotune maps fuel in increments of 5%, and flash maps fuel in increments of 1/10th of a single percent. Now again, I dont know diddley, but I do know I want the tuning tools at my disposal to do the best job possible.
If my son swept the floor in 5% blocks... well, he would be re sweeping it. I certainly like more precision than that, even if its just in my very expensive, very exclusive, high boost, race developed machine. Again, im just swatting at a piece of straw here.
 

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I dont think it matters much if you flash or PC , there both tools that achieve the same ends as far as basic tuning goes , use that which suits you best
Its the background setup that has to be flashed,If you have brought that capability you may as well use it to tune unless like me you have connectivity problems where the flash is not reliable

As far as injector proportioning goes, again its a tool for a purpose , if your running out of fuel in the higher rpm after mods, changing the proportioning helps extend the fuel system capability
50/50 lets both injectors use all there duty cycle , 80/20 has one set never reach full capability while the other is will over any recommended duty cycle %
 

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Power Commander do not incrase RPM rev limit and do not prevent the ECU to close secondary flys.

These two issues must be addressed with a ECU flash, like it or not.
 

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@Niobium23

Gotta pick a path dude...You say in post #6 :

"And if a pcv goes bad and you can just unplug it and go home, then what was all the warnings and blather about needing the correct custom developed map in the pcv in the first place? Again, large risk with an expensive machine."

Then under it

"And if the justification for us not to flash our own machine is 'the options would make our head spin', and basically that we the riders, aren't smart enough to do it, well, forgive me please if I give it the 'ole college try myself."

You don't want to take a large risk with an expensive machine, but then you want to flash it yourself to give it the 'ole college try. Which one dude, you don't wanna risk it, or you wanna risk it ?

And you say you dont have a dog in the hunt....You most certainly do. You think the Brock flash and PCV is crap, and your skill with the Woolich is better. Just say it and stick with it. Your self admitted 30 min phone call certainly doesnt make you an expert on any type of product comparison because in YOUR head one is superior because you have figured out how to download a tune.

In post #8 you rag on the disabling of the O2 sensors and Kawi's brilliance to have the system there for use and abuse for 4 years in the stock config...Exactly what do you think you are doing when you use the Woolich software to modify your bike ?

I feel like I am reading a CNN editorial.

NOLA
 

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@Turbo329, @Brock

Thanks for the conversation. That was good info as always.

Turbo329....You dont think to much. You think about the important small details, and $hit I never thought of.

NOLA
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Power Commander do not incrase RPM rev limit and do not prevent the ECU to close secondary flys.

These two issues must be addressed with a ECU flash, like it or not.

You're right. No one is disputing that. We know that the PCV can't derestrict the bike. We're discussing the tuning aspect once a bike has been uncorked.

So what I've gathered so far is that the PCV is easier than re-flashing and adjustments can be made on the fly. On the flip side, reflashing with software offers a more finer tune". Whether or not that translates into a faster bike is debatable.

Thanks everyone for contributing.
 

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@Turbo329

Even with all of this additional power delivery I think the overwhelming problem most of us have is keeping it planted on the ground. People (me too) are looking for more and more HP, yet going full throttle is laughable in any of the lower gears, and touchy in the upper, on the way up...

NOLA
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
@Turbo329

Even with all of this additional power delivery I think the overwhelming problem most of us have is keeping it planted on the ground. People (me too) are looking for more and more HP, yet going full throttle is laughable in any of the lower gears, and touchy in the upper, on the way up...

NOLA
True. We're spinning tires on rims, burning up clutches, bending swing arms, popping chains, losing traction, and power wheelie-ing 20mph shy of 200mph.

The level of insanity we have reach is mind blowing.
 

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@Nola
Using a pcv that by brocks own words is not as hardy as oem equipment is a risk. Using a device that could fail which was your fuel add for safe high rpm operation is a risk. Then making a statement like 'you can just unplug it and ride home', seems incorrect.
I would rather add a defined percentage and data log and work fine tuning from there. Whom said anything about downloading a map. Lol. The thirty minute conversation, as explained in my post, was with regards to data logging. And what my enquiry specificly concerned was accepting trims based upon a user created target air fuel ratio map. The targets in the map being the heart of the issue and the crux of the matter when tuning. If you confused, simply re-read. Lol.
 

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I think Brock's words of wisdom say it all for the average rider. You can easily return it to normal with a Power Commander.

I had an initial reflash on my H2 in 2015, mostly to remove the limiter plus a few other adjustments - like 100% throttle map through to the red line. THEN I fitted a PCV and had it dyno'd. Any changes to the bike and I can have it back on the dyno for adjustment. Any time I want to put it back to (near) normal, have a problem with the PC (never had one yet) or want to sell it it's very easy to simply unplug it.

I stress, I'm the average rider. Not a whizz-kid ECU programmer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I think Brock's words of wisdom say it all for the average rider. You can easily return it to normal with a Power Commander.

I had an initial reflash on my H2 in 2015, mostly to remove the limiter plus a few other adjustments - like 100% throttle map through to the red line. THEN I fitted a PCV and had it dyno'd. Any changes to the bike and I can have it back on the dyno for adjustment. Any time I want to put it back to (near) normal, have a problem with the PC (never had one yet) or want to sell it it's very easy to simply unplug it.

I stress, I'm the average rider. Not a whizz-kid ECU programmer.
I guess that's my whole take-away from this discussion. For 90% of us the PCV is ideal. Maybe the 10 percent-ers will opt for more fine tuning.

My whole thing is that I don't think that someone that tunes with the ECU has an unfair advantage over my PCV tuned bike. Whether it be track or strip.
 
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