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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This month's issue of Performance Bike had an interesting article about the H2R. I don't know if there is a link to the article, so I will try to touch on some of the points. They could "only" reach 205 mph on the bike, the article concluded that the bike was electronically limited. Next they put the bike on the dyno and got 249 horsepower. On the same dyno, a stock H2 got 205 and the 2015 BMW S1000RR had 196! Now we know why the BMW is so stinking fast, only 9 horsepower less than the H2 and quite a bit lighter. For top speed, they showed the H2R at 205, the H2 at 182 and the BMW at 186. The BMW was quicker to 60 mph, but then the supercharged advantage showed a big advantage. The H2R was 12.5 seconds to 180, the H2 was 15.4 and the BMW was 18 seconds. The test was on a Dynojet dyno, but the stock numbers for the H2 lead me to believe the numbers were roughly 12 hp higher than the Dynojet dyno I use. The test did not show the a/f ratios, but did say the bike was way rich up top. They did ruin the tire and again Kawasaki says the tire is for track use, not top end use. Anyone have an idea what tire is safe for top end use? I'm sure people that read the article will have different opinions of the data, but it does sound like even the H2R is speed restricted and then detuned with the a/f ratios as well. Wonder what else they have done to limit the power? Also if you look at the two dyno results for the H2 and the R, you see that the R makes 44 more horsepower. Putting that in what we are seeing on our dynos, I am guessing this R would show about 237 horsepower, or about 15 less than what some of our bikes have on the top end with our flashed units and other mods. This is really starting to make Rickey Gadsen's 218 mph look really fast compared to the R's. Thoughts?
 

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The tyres fitted to the H2R are Bridgestone Racing Battlax V01F Soft on the front and Bridgestone Racing Battlax V01R Medium on the rear. The H2 has Battlax Racing Street RS10 fitted. As far as I know (and have read) it's the V01 which causes problems when doing straight-line stuff, the RS10 is fine. My bike has done nearly 900 road miles and 6 top-speed runs on the runway at Elvington, plus 2 dyno sessions including 12 top speed pulls to measure power and a lot of time at constant speeds while the mapping was carried out. The tyre is fine with no abnormal wear or discernible problems.

I think dyno numbers need to be taken with a pinch of salt and mean more when expressed as a "before" and "after" set of numbers during the tuning process. As an absolute figure and taken in isolation there are too many variables from one dyno to another, on different days, with differing air temperatures and pressures for it to be meaningful.
 

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i agree with the before and after.. but if theyre showing h2 as having 205.. and h2r as 250.. thats way off from what kawasaki say.. kawasaki say the h2 is 200 hp with 210 ram air i think.. and the h2r was 300 with 320 ram air or something? 5 hp more for the h2(15 more from what other dynos are reading) and 50 hp less for the h2r.. thats massive.. either thats a dud h2r.. or that dynojet is really really not calibrated correctly or something..

205 mph for a h2r seems really wrong aswell.. the h2 will do that..
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
i agree with the before and after.. but if theyre showing h2 as having 205.. and h2r as 250.. thats way off from what kawasaki say.. kawasaki say the h2 is 200 hp with 210 ram air i think.. and the h2r was 300 with 320 ram air or something? 5 hp more for the h2(15 more from what other dynos are reading) and 50 hp less for the h2r.. thats massive.. either thats a dud h2r.. or that dynojet is really really not calibrated correctly or something..

205 mph for a h2r seems really wrong aswell.. the h2 will do that..
The H2 has to be flashed to go over 186, now it appears the R will have to be flashed to go over 205. Wonder why Kawasaki would restrict an off road bike with no warranty?

As for dyno results, it appears like the extra $25,000 only buys you about 44 horsepower
 

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...As for dyno results, it appears like the extra $25,000 only buys you about 44 horsepower
You've forgot
-the awesome exhaust who cost $5000
-the carbon parts
-engine parts
-the weight
-bigger wheelbase
-...

I think the H2R deserve to cost this price :D
 

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Didn't Brock get 275 to the rear wheel on his dyno, with the H2 flashed and stage 2 exhaust? And did Don get the on, off throttle remapped, on this flash? There seems to be conflicting reports on what we will get with the flash, pipe, and Dna. I just want to know what the real number is that we will be getting for our money.
Thank you
 

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Interesting about the tires. When I met up with IB I know he changed his at 2300 miles lol!

Here is a dyno chart that Brocks Performance did with the H2 and 15 S1000rr. Shows the same peak whp difference, but look where the power difference is! This was also with Kurves bike I think which put down nearly 10whp less than the other stock H2 he had on there with 900 miles. The new S1000rr makes 4whp more than the previous gen with back to back testing.


Sorry about the poor picture quality, I couldn't find the original brocks site since he doesn't have a dyno graph archive. Red is the H2 and blue is the S1krr


 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
You've forgot
-the awesome exhaust who cost $5000
-the carbon parts
-engine parts
-the weight
-bigger wheelbase
-...

I think the H2R deserve to cost this price :D

Ben, the weight difference is due to the carbon parts and the lack of lighting and the heavy-ass muffler and cat. The wheelbase is the same on each bike. The engine parts are not much different and certainly don't show much performance difference at this point . The carbon parts are neat, but I would never spend money to lighten a bike when I need to go on a diet first. I see all of these Ducatis with carbon this and titanium that and wonder why do this on a street bike? As far as the horsepower cost, when you flash a stock H2 you pick up about 30 horsepower and it cost about $780 from Don Guhl. This is costing you roughly $26 for every additional horsepower.


The price of the R doesn't make sense in it's present form, but after they have been flashed, derestricted and tuned for A/R and possibly timing, they should scream like all get out. Get your popcorn and sit back and watch.
 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmZH8ZXf27c

this guy claims 357kph = 222mph on a race track (based from speedo). I am sure there is some error v. real speed.

the 205mph and 250hp seem too low for H2R. Could very well be a dud bike that they had. We will see some real figures eventually in the future. The bike needs to run at Bonneville to see what it can really do and turn off electronic controls. I don't believe Kawasaki released and advertised 300+ hp monster that is not true.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmZH8ZXf27c

this guy claims 357kph = 222mph on a race track (based from speedo). I am sure there is some error v. real speed.

the 205mph and 250hp seem too low for H2R. Could very well be a dud bike that they had. We will see some real figures eventually in the future. The bike needs to run at Bonneville to see what it can really do and turn off electronic controls. I don't believe Kawasaki released and advertised 300+ hp monster that is not true.

The article said that the bike also showed 220 on the speedo, but the timing clocks showed 205.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Didn't Brock get 275 to the rear wheel on his dyno, with the H2 flashed and stage 2 exhaust? And did Don get the on, off throttle remapped, on this flash? There seems to be conflicting reports on what we will get with the flash, pipe, and Dna. I just want to know what the real number is that we will be getting for our money.
Thank you
Rapidroy, I'll start by saying I am far from an H2R hater, but I was just surprised by the first horsepower results we saw for the R. The dyne results that the article showed were a bit higher than what we have seen in the US. Is it the dyno, or does the European bike make more power? Until someone else in Europe chimes in, all we have is opinions. By the testing in the UK, we saw that the R made 44 more horsepower than the H2.

As far as mods go, the only spec I would trust for a horsepower number is that a Guhl flash is worth 30 horsepower. The air filter change might get you 5 hp, but no more. (using my cost per horsepower analysis, this cost about $40 per horsey if you pay $200 for the filter) Gutting the exhaust and cat is does nothing power wise on the dyno, so I doubt anyone has truly seen a power increase with a slip on only. Did Brock get more? Possibly, but I think it had to involve using the PCV and a different map. What is left? There has to be potential in a full exhaust and the timing. Don Guhl is also talking about new gears for the supercharger to modify the boost and that will undoubtably raise a lot of power. I am still curious about extra potential from the R's camshafts, but I think we need to maximize these other areas first.
 

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Rapidroy, I'll start by saying I am far from an H2R hater, but I was just surprised by the first horsepower results we saw for the R. The dyne results that the article showed were a bit higher than what we have seen in the US. Is it the dyno, or does the European bike make more power? Until someone else in Europe chimes in, all we have is opinions. By the testing in the UK, we saw that the R made 44 more horsepower than the H2.

As far as mods go, the only spec I would trust for a horsepower number is that a Guhl flash is worth 30 horsepower. The air filter change might get you 5 hp, but no more. (using my cost per horsepower analysis, this cost about $40 per horsey if you pay $200 for the filter) Gutting the exhaust and cat is does nothing power wise on the dyno, so I doubt anyone has truly seen a power increase with a slip on only. Did Brock get more? Possibly, but I think it had to involve using the PCV and a different map. What is left? There has to be potential in a full exhaust and the timing. Don Guhl is also talking about new gears for the supercharger to modify the boost and that will undoubtably raise a lot of power. I am still curious about extra potential from the R's camshafts, but I think we need to maximize these other areas first.
Until you can match the H2R's air intake volume and speed, all that stuff you just listed isn't going to be worth a ****. With the current intake 250-ish is all you're gonna make safely. The reason mucking with the exhaust doesn't make a difference is because if it can't get more air in, there's nothing to blow out. The reason the rev limiter/fuel cutoff on the H2 is in the 10k range is because over that there isn't enough air coming in to safely make anymore power. Engines are just big air pumps. You can't run a marathon breathing through a straw. Imagine the H2 as the H2R's asthmatic cousin. Until we can find a way to open a second airway and increase the filter surface area, all you're gonna do by adding timing and supercharger gears is eventually starve the motor of air at high RPM and nuke it, or collapse an air filter and nuke it. THIS HAS ALREADY HAPPENED TO ONE OF US as some of you know yet for some reason no one is discussing it. It's not my story to share so if you-know-who still wants to keep it a secret, I won't out him/her but trust me, the intake is the biggest problem to overcome in the power struggle. All that other stuff comes after.

If you wanna make 300HP on the H2 and not blow it up, you need an R equivalent intake. Period.
 

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The H2R hits the rev limiter at about 205, MCN could only get the same speed. It needs taller gearing to realize its true potential.
 

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If you wanna make 300HP on the H2 and not blow it up, you need an R equivalent intake. Period.
I looked at GoFaster post in the Brocks dyno testing thread (post 252), http://www.ninjah2.org/forum/ninja-h2-general-discussion/7457-brocks-dyno-testing-h2-exhaust-7.html.

He explains in quite some detail how to calculate the air intake and the H2 would be big enough. Of course he could be way wrong and this is not my area of expertise so i really can't have an opinion, kawasaki obviously designed H2R with bigger intakes for a reason and not just the looks. I've seen a lot of bikes making a lot of power (turbo busas and so on) and can't recall noticing they had modified their intake so much..?
 

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Hey Edinir, on Brock's dyno testing H2 with exhaust thread, #351 , they were saying that Brock was getting 275 to the rear wheel. Do you think that is way too optimistic?
thanks
 

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I've read somewhere that a dealer had both H2 and H2R where he they thought they could convert the H2 to H2R easily, but it wasn't as easy as they thought. They thought they could swap parts around and turn the H2 into H2R, but it turns out that not only the cams are different but also the crankcases are different.

I would not be surprised that by pushing horsepower up too much on the H2 by replacing exhaust and maps could damage your engine if the internal components are not matched.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Hey Edinir, on Brock's dyno testing H2 with exhaust thread, [URL=http://www.ninjah2.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=351]#351 [/URL] , they were saying that Brock was getting 275 to the rear wheel. Do you think that is way too optimistic?
thanks

The red chart on #351 was dyno run .017 on 7/16/15. The bike they tested had his stage 2 package described as a prototype full exhaust, Guhl flash, PCV and map, DNA filter and pump gas. He showed 261 horsepower. That is more than my best run, but I had a stock pipe and did not use the PCV. I do not have any reason to doubt Brock's numbers. No one in his position will lie about something like this for small gains, it is just dumb when we all have access to dynos AND the internet. Crooks get caught quick, so I feel pretty confident that these are good numbers. I have lost track of my dyno runs, but I know Brock and Don Guhl have a lot more than I do on the H2. Let them wear out engines and we can buy their results when they get fine tuned. Rapidroy, I guess my point here is that you could run your bike on the dyno and get roughly 193 horsepower and then order and install the stuff above and about ten hours later pick up about 68 horsepower, or a 35% increase. Cool, huh?
 

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Until you can match the H2R's air intake volume and speed, all that stuff you just listed isn't going to be worth a ****. With the current intake 250-ish is all you're gonna make safely. The reason mucking with the exhaust doesn't make a difference is because if it can't get more air in, there's nothing to blow out. The reason the rev limiter/fuel cutoff on the H2 is in the 10k range is because over that there isn't enough air coming in to safely make anymore power. Engines are just big air pumps. You can't run a marathon breathing through a straw. Imagine the H2 as the H2R's asthmatic cousin. Until we can find a way to open a second airway and increase the filter surface area, all you're gonna do by adding timing and supercharger gears is eventually starve the motor of air at high RPM and nuke it, or collapse an air filter and nuke it. THIS HAS ALREADY HAPPENED TO ONE OF US as some of you know yet for some reason no one is discussing it. It's not my story to share so if you-know-who still wants to keep it a secret, I won't out him/her but trust me, the intake is the biggest problem to overcome in the power struggle. All that other stuff comes after.

If you wanna make 300HP on the H2 and not blow it up, you need an R equivalent intake. Period.

I am not an expert on this, but the incoming air becomes a ratio to fuel once it enters the combustion chamber? So if the bike is still maintaining a proper ratio of air to fuel through the entire rev range, how is the engine starving for air? Or are you talking about the Supercharger itself starving for air before it compresses it, and then it grenades?


Yes the easier the air can come in, the easier it will make power as long as the other outgoing components match. The added timing can also have an affect, but Brock was saying there has no been no issues with knock, even on 89 octane.

I could have read your comment wrong, but I am interested to learn more.
 

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Read the link at post 14 in this thread to the explanation in the other thread - I'm not going through it all again. Suffice it to say that the H2's air intake is MORE than enough to support the engine's airflow demand. The H2R's air intake is only like that "because they could" (no headlight assembly in the way).
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
This goes all the way back to the original post #1 on this thread. I was puzzled by the extra power recorded by the stock H2. While I was answering Rhody's post about the cat and putting an Akra on his bike, it dawned on me that the bikes in the UK all came with the Akra exhaust. While this seems very surprising, it may explain the extra power experienced on the UK bikes on a Dynojet dyno.
 
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