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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Any well experienced tuners use auto tune on your h2? Is it any benefit if I already have a professionally created map or Brock's maps?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Do not place this equipment , AUTO TUNE , will break your bike !!!
What happened to your bike with auto tune installed. Also did you have your local dealer/bike shop to program your auto tune, done it yourself, or someone with well known experience working with auto tune devices done the work for you?
 

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No H2 experience, but "general" experience, and I will explain why ...

Autotune does not work well at low revs and small throttle positions. PowerCommanders throttle position resolution is 0, 2, 5 percent open. For the liter bikes, idling, cruising at a constant (say) 50 km/h, coasting with throttle shut through 50 km/h, accelerating gently at moderate revs, and holding the revs constant in neutral at a few thousand RPM, are all 0% throttle position as far as the PowerCommander is concerned - but they are all obviously different load conditions. So the autotune tries to find a setting that it wants based on varying load conditions that it can't distinguish, and it ends up jumping all over the place and always being wrong. The actual map inside the bike's ECU is mapped very finely near zero throttle position so that it can deal with this.

Autotune also doesn't deal with hard acceleration well. By the time the lambda sensor gets a reading, the engine's operating condition has already changed to something else.

The best way to map a fuel injection controller is to hold the engine at every plausible steady-state combination of throttle position and RPM and then sweep both the fuel delivery and ignition timing to obtain the best results. This takes a LONG time. Then you switch over to transient conditions and sort out the correction factors for changing throttle position, etc.

If you have had a GOOD re-mapping done by a good tuner, Autotune should not be able to improve it.

Caution: not all people who have a dyno and the capability to re-map fuel injection systems, know what they are doing.

Aiming for a constant air/fuel ratio everywhere in the map is not a good thing ... it's a bad thing. If you see someone wanting or aiming to do that, run the other way. Full load higher revs has to be slightly rich to protect the engine. Gentle part-throttle low-revs cruise should be slightly lean - not only to save fuel and reduce emissions but also to cut down carbon build-up and cut down the amount of fuel that ends up diluting the engine oil AND because there is no need for the engine to run rich under those conditions - and the throttle response is usually better (obviously as long as you don't go overboard).
 

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I don't necessarily disagree with GoFaster but. I have tuned bikes with auto-tune and it does work. You just have to understand how and why it works and how best to use it. I did not find much good usage information on the net either even from DJ that makes it.

If you get the full package EXH/ECU/PCV from Brock you're +99% there and most people would call that a day. But if you're serious racer and want to squeeze every bit of power you may want to tune to differing conditions. For that you need a tool that logs. DJ, Woolich and some others have loggers and software to do this. How well these work depends on the person/approach used to apply them.

Generally you will log during the operational envelope you are interested in making power then shut down and look at the corrections you can make. then repeat as needed. This is generally on a dyno or at a drag strip.

On the road the off power areas can be adjusted for good cruising and mileage if that's what you're after using the AT. The WB O2 sensors can drift and don't last forever so adjustment should usually be done and the map updated and then the AT disabled/removed and so NOT used to continually adjust as you ride.

At low RPM with an open exhaust system outside air can reverse thru the muffler and pollute the sensor readings. There is a way to get good idle and off idle response though with the AT.
 
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That's a good description. Autotune is a tool, it has its limitations, if you understand and work with or around the limitations then it's useful, if you try to use it to solve everything then it can be a headache.

The power commander that is in my zx10r was tuned manually based on watching what an air/fuel ratio gauge was doing. If you have access to proper data logging, it will be a WHOLE lot easier because you can see the RPM and throttle position and the measured lambda. You can look at the log data and see for yourself whether it was a good data point, or perhaps not (e.g. if the throttle position was changing rapidly).

If the bike has secondary air injection (most newer bikes do), plug the hose that feeds this system while doing the data logging, because otherwise your lambda reading will not be what the engine itself is seeing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Unfortunately I do not stay near Ohio to visit Brock's. Any well respected tuners near Atlanta, Georgia that anyone recommend? If not I guess I have no choice but to take a long road trip
 

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Pureracing; You can take the bike to Classic Motorcycle Performance here in Gallatin TN. Ask for Jeremy. He has a very nice dyno setup, and he does a great job. He is very picky, and will get it right. He has tuned all of my bikes, and I could not be happier. He will be tuning my H2 once I get it finished. Let me know if you need the contact info. From Atlanta is a 4 hour drive. Thanks. Mike.
 

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You can always skip wasting your money on piggy back controllers and for the same price, go straight to having your ecu reflashed that'll have the fueling already dialed in and get all the benefits of an ecu flash removing factory limitations and getting performance that pure fueling can't touch. 2 Wheel DynoWorks has been doing that successfully on many bikes including the H2.

Build your map with autotune, then disconnect it and import the map over. that'll be your best bet at getting as close as you can to a good tune on your own. don't just run autotune constantly, it'll end up not being able to manage the fueling properly. on top of that, the high performance capabilities of forced induction engines usually requires a tuner with solid knowledge of tuning said engines, even with it's fancy knock sensors, a bad tune can grenade any engine
 

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You can always skip wasting your money on piggy back controllers and for the same price, go straight to having your ecu reflashed that'll have the fueling already dialed in and get all the benefits of an ecu flash removing factory limitations and getting performance that pure fueling can't touch. 2 Wheel DynoWorks has been doing that successfully on many bikes including the H2.

Build your map with autotune, then disconnect it and import the map over. that'll be your best bet at getting as close as you can to a good tune on your own. don't just run autotune constantly, it'll end up not being able to manage the fueling properly. on top of that, the high performance capabilities of forced induction engines usually requires a tuner with solid knowledge of tuning said engines, even with it's fancy knock sensors, a bad tune can grenade any engine


EXACTLY, Pigs are outdated technology, but Dynojet and their retailers still want to sell them to you. Why? $$$ of course.
 

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EXACTLY, Pigs are outdated technology, but Dynojet and their retailers still want to sell them to you. Why? $$$ of course.
Wrong. They're very useful and can build fuel maps far faster Than flash software and can then be imported into flash files. Not every bike benefits from an ecu flash, while every bike benefits from its fueling being tuned. For making tiny adjustments on the fly they are great. Fit new air filter, no small piece of hardware, need to make 1% adjustments, and it takes 10x as long to make and verify those changes using flash software.

However on this bike, an ecu flash is the way to go as 2 wheel Dynoworks has shown
 

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I love the internet, as everyone can express their opinions...

Outdated technology? I will express my opinion in objection of that statement. We have the option of using any type of fuel controller available here at Brock's Performance (as well as ECU tuning) - we choose the Dynojet PCV, for it's superior technology over any other brand, when used in conjunction with their model 250 dyno and tuning software - as it is the closest available to duplicating a factory tuning cell. FYI: We now have the capability to individually tune all four cylinders in the same manner shown in at the end of this video:


We do not offer custom tuning at Brock's, so no amount of '$$$' can help you get a tune from us. Maps are free with an exhaust purchase, because they help the bike perform at it's best when installed. We can also help the owner tune via e-mail (for changing conditions, varying fuel types, improved fuel mileage etc.... also free with your exhaust purchase).

Brock
 

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Some of the new guys might not know who you are, and where you're coming from, Brock. Back in his drag racing days, he was the first to break into the 7 seconds. He turned his focus to tuning a complete exhaust, air filter, pc, flashed ecu. He has these packages for a lot of bikes. When he was working on the H2 package, he wasn't satisfied until he got the maximum out of it. He was the only exhaust company that stayed with us on this forum. Personally, I just want to say thank you for everything that you have done for us.
Get a hold of him, and see what all he has for the H2. He is a speed freak just like us.

Brock's email
[email protected]
phone number
1-937-912-0054
[email protected]
 

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The mathematical scientific FACT is a PIG works how? It takes "honest" information from the ECU then "lies" to the fuel injectors..

It tells a ECU running proportionately lean to elicit a richen-ing response.
NONE OF THIS HAPPENS INSTANTLY. It takes time. REACTION.


A flash does not require a lie to correct the AFR. The AFR is correct in a DIFFERENT and scientifically FASTER way than with a spliced in PIG. The ECU doesn't have to respond or react to correct anything, it is SEEKING the correct # and can then use its 'correct' parameters to keep it there. As designed into the functionality of the ECU itself.


Listen,,,,,, if ECU tuning was available since the beginning of FI, does anyone think that PIGS would have ever been developed? Of course not.


PIGS have served their purpose. They are outdated technology.


And Dynojets AutoTune is so slow at sampling, 9 samples per second that no serious drag racer would use one for tuning at the strip. That's why the AT product is so "hated" on Psycho Bike.


PIG sellers opinions will obviously differ, ..... because they want to keep selling you PIGs.
 

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However on this bike, an ecu flash is the way to go as 2 wheel Dynoworks has shown
What you don't see is how far the AFR curve was off for this specific application. Ask Nels, these are the words I got direct out of his mouth over the phone on Friday. The AFR from the ECU just being dropped in ranged anywhere from 10.5:1 in the top end to 18:1 in the low end; widely erratic across the board. The PCV had to be fit in order to bring the fuel in line to get the results he obtained. It wasn't simply drop in the ECU and bam, instant 257HP on the very first run after warm up.

Any ECU flash you do, whether they tell you "you don't need a piggyback fuel module because the needed fueling is in the ECU" or not, you need to either invest in a wideband to monitor it yourself or if you don't know what you're not doing, take it to a shop to have them run it on the roller to double check the AFR and make sure everything checks out. That extra $75-100 will go a long way saving you time and money from the effects of running too rich/lean.
 

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Selenap, While I can understand the idea you have that a pig because it "lies" to the injectors that it also may slow or interfere with the process of firing the injectors. When we say INSTANTLY and REACTION time then we look at the actual events taking place in an engine we begin to see that in computer terms an engine and in fact the entire real world is a very slow place.

All a PCV does is adjust the pulse duration of each ECU output pulse by lengthening or shortening it by the correction value contained in the mapping table PCV applys to it. Doing this is something purpose built digital signal processors are very good at. The processors have dedicated Pulse width (PWM) outputs embedded within them with extremely high accuracy and speed.

Consider that a 4 cylinder engine turning at 14000 rpm pulses the injectors 466 times a second (14000 * 2 / 60 ) which sounds like a lot. But when compared to the processing speed of a controller running many millions of instructions per second this becomes a mundane task. And so any latency introduced by the pig into the signal chain IMO is insignificant in the bigger picture. The quality of the components and the firmware that controls it I think is what Brock was referring to in the DynoJet part. Read Brocks statement ...The PCV has so much extra processing power in reserve it can even have separate correction maps for each cylinder!

As for the Auto-tune I'm not sure whether 9 samples a second is true or not but I would venture to say that in application all O2 sensors have inherent latency. And that very smart programming algorithms can smooth out the data points to an acceptable level for non professional racing or street use. Of course the big boys use better hardware but I have used AT and they do work.

I don't disagree that a pig isn't completely necessary now but IM mathemagical scientific opinion it doesn't detract from performance and makes it very easy to adjust fueling. When that stops being the case many may stop using it. $.02
 
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