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Discussion Starter #1
As the title infers, I have to cop this one...

Didn't even need to post this (and save online embarrassment!), but may be a good lesson/early catch for some others - or not.

Around early/mid 2019 I put H2R cams in my 2015 H2. Set the cams up per H2R manual specs. (put the cam gear/wheels on myself) set at 11 ft/lbs with non-permanent loctite as instructed. Was so worried about the wheels coming loose I rechecked the torque setting 4 times for each bolt on both cams!

Well, after months of Woolich tuning which included datalogging on track, a 4 hour dyno tuning session to get the woolich tune just right. Joel (from Woolich) got 264 rwhp and 134 nm torque at a "safe" 11.8:1 AFR. Said it was a low reading dyno of those around here. Also said he could easily get 290+ hp if tuned more aggressively! These are bragging numbers only for sure.

In early December 2019 I did a 3 day track ride at Phillip Island, the bike was performing absolutely beautifully. Late on the second day I was at the end of the straight, rolling down from 6th to 5th, and tipping into turn 1 (right hander). Bike suddenly dies down, thought I'd hit the kill switch! Short version is the inlet cam wheel bolts had backed out! And no, I didn't hear any tell tale noises beforehand - I ride with ear plugs in, plus the TT3 exhaust absolutely howls at top revs.

Fast forward to now; bike is in shop, engine out, 6 valves buggered, but only very slight damage to head/valve seats. Can be fixed by specialist re-conditioner. Various other parts on order to complete rebuild. Estimated cost at this stage (not warranty obviously) is AU $7,500. This includes mechanic time, a new head would cost me an extra $2-$3K ontop, but not needed.

I had run the bike on 3 track days, hours onroad, 4 hours dyno etc., and it goes on track! I expect a bit of rubbishing online, but nothing will match the disappointment and monetary expense I have! I still intend on track riding the bike, it's the best place around here to let it stretch it's legs and use it's power.

Decisions were made...Lessons were learnt...

Don.
 

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Been there done that! Lesson learnt, any mods to moving parts of a modified engine should be checked after each (abusive) run to make sure all is within specifications including valve clearances, it's the knowledge gained through this checking that helps you push it to the limits and gives you an advantage over others. Just checked the Service Manual, 11 ft/lbs is not much is it?
 

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Is it worth using new bolts for the rebuild Don?

Just a thought since other components on the h2 are single use only, such as the nuts for the rear sprocket. Thread stretch on these tiny bolts can make an advised torque setting inadequate.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Yes 11 ft/lb doesn't seem much!

Bob, I think you're right with that, should have used new bolts.

It'll be all new parts on rebuild & done by head mechanic.

I'm not new to doing some work on bikes over the years, but have been caught out lacking on this occasion.
 

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That price seems outrageous for just head damage. Was there any bottom end damage?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
No bottom end damage, the cost includes hours spent on dismantling, locating damage, repairs, re-installation. Prices in Aust. for most motorcycle related parts/work does seem to be more expensive than overseas - U.S. in particular. I guess being an island nation, low volume units and far from most places makes us hostage to company pricing etc. I would think New Zealand is similar to Aust.? Rick150 would know.
 

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^I guess so, but all the kawi parts in North America come from Japan too. I am in Canada, similar exchange rate to the Australian dollar, and man I cant see how it's costing that much. A new head is like 1300 Canadian, and you should be able to use several parts still from your old head damaged head. Even if they replaced every valve, spring, buckets, cams etc etc, it shouldnt be that high. I might consider looking at another shop. They can pull the head out with the motor in the bike.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Had a look at the bike a week ago in the shop, just a rolling frame with wheels at the moment!

You'd be surprised (as you are I guess!) at the mark up on bike parts here just because they can.

In South Australia there is only one officially recognised Kawasaki H2 dealer with their H2 trained mechanic (not saying other mechanics can't do the same job). Our motorcycle sales volume is just too low, even compared to interstate, and no real competition.

It is what it is, and I just have to suck it up and get on with it. I'm really missing the bike now, even though it's been pretty hot here this summer, I usually try to get rides in but haven't done so for several weeks now, my penance!
 

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Yeh, soon as it is H2 the price goes up, same with my Porsche but can use VW parts that cross over. So when I want something for the H2 I search for cross over parts. The excuse for outrages service cost is that the mechanic had to go to an H2 training session. So I service it myself except the first one. So much for the training, had to use a big leverage tool to get the oil filter off!


Own an H2? You can afford it! (means ok to extract as much cash as they can).
 

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Yeh, soon as it is H2 the price goes up, same with my Porsche but can use VW parts that cross over. So when I want something for the H2 I search for cross over parts. The excuse for outrages service cost is that the mechanic had to go to an H2 training session. So I service it myself except the first one. So much for the training, had to use a big leverage tool to get the oil filter off!


Own an H2? You can afford it! (means ok to extract as much cash as they can).
With my car a few years ago, also a Porsche, I used a non-franchised Porsche specialist in Saltash, Cornwall. The car was out of warranty and I discovered Williams Crawford close to my home. I put the car in for a simple job at first as a kind of test and asked for their comments on the car. They passed with flying colours.

With my H2 I'm very lucky to have a really good dealer in the town. The owner is a personal friend which helps but they are very genuine and look after all their customers. The labour rate is what it is, no difference per-hour between an H2 service and a 125cc bike. Service items aren't too bad price-wise and I haven't had to buy any other bits yet apart from the throttle housing, which was broken by a scrutineer at an LSR meeting and the single-use rear sprocket nuts whenever I change the gearing. Can't complain.
 

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Sorry to hear that Don, bad way to end a fun couple of days at the Island.
Curious, what sort of lap times/top speeds were you seeing?

set at 11 ft/lbs with non-permanent loctite as instructed.
I would guess that if the bolt backed-out then replacing with new bolts wouldn't have made much difference, torque or loctite has to be the problem and if you assume that the torque settings in the manual is correct then I would suggest using a permanent Loctite instead.

Loctite 263 is "permanent" but can still be undone, its oil tolerant and works at high operating temperatures.

It will still hold more 60% strength at your highest oil temperatures and in the unlikely event that you ever need to undo those bolts you can put a pencil flame on the bolt before undoing it. Apply the loctite, torque them up and leave for 24 hours before doing anything with them.

TDS
https://tdsna.henkel.com/americas/na/adhesives/hnauttds.nsf/web/382795AAF2B4355B8525760E004BEA0A/$File/263-EN.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hello mate!

Didn't get lap times, though I'm not fast anyway. Difference with the H2 this time though is I felt much better on it. It responded so nicely, I could concentrate on the track more. Won't stop me from going back to P.I., still think it's a better track than Tailem Bend for the H2.

As I said, it is what it is, just getting withdrawals though! And the permanent loctite sounds a better deal too!

Cheers.
 

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Yep locktight green here , the hi strength bearing retainer type , and i have never used a torque wrench on a cam bolt, there all set to AFT (awfully Fuggen Tight)
after setting the cam timing i remove 1 bolt at a time , rinse the whole area in locktight primer , put enough locktight in the thread that some spills out and gets behind the gear and around the bolt in the gear slot or hole, then again a light dab on the bolt and install, tightening with a long flat sided ring spanner (wrench to you guys) and the limiting factor on tension is the motor , it starts to rotate as you get near tight enough
some of my Suzukis have had this done multiple times without bolt stretch or fatigue being noticable
 

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Discussion Starter #14
All good info here, looks like the permanent loctite is the way to go regardless of what manuals say!

Interesting method you use OzBooster for tightening & using the motor to gauge tension, I guess if it's able to turn it over then that's enough tension on the bolt right there!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Small update...

Went and saw bike couple of days ago, spoke to service bloke. Head to come back this Tues/Wed then bike put together again.

So far, 6 valves bent, head needing mild work, other odds and sods. Interestingly they found one of the oil jets (2 per cylinder bottom end) was slightly bent and had caused a small split in the piping. Even they are confused as to how it was done as they don't think it was the cam wheel bolt knocking around there!

With any luck I will have the bike back by next week. I'm keeping all the buggered bits. I'll post up what has been replaced, which included another H2R inlet cam! That's were some of the pricing is!

Don.
 

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Even after getting the workshop to put it together what's your plan to check everything is good, how many hours before a thorough check of bolts etc?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I'll be talking to the mechanic when I collect the bike. Already plan on working out a return time to check everything. Last thing I want is a return to this senario!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Get bike back today, having it delivered to my door due to the COVID-19 crap, easier than me getting a train, then bus to the bike shop!

Will post info on what was replaced/repaired once I have it all.

Senior mechanic only one to work on it, got it going last Wednesday, then spent next 2 days test riding, checking, riding, checking - they said due to it being an H2 they wanted to make extra sure things are correct.

Total damage to pocket AUS $7,798!!

Now I get to park it in the garage for a few months, Yay!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Got bike back yesterday after work. Shop owner dropped it off himself in van. Had a chat with him, he owns a 2015 H2R and does competition riding on other bikes. Given a list of parts replaced, with main parts being refurbished head, new valves X 6, 1 new piston & ring set, various other parts.

Due to current COVID-19 restrictions I have yet to speak to senior mechanic regarding exact work done to head and engine, but will in time get this and put on here. Just glad to get it back home! Will spend time detailing it, and when weather permits use it to get to work, and take the long way home through local hills.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Well, washed and cleaned bike today. When I tried to start it, it did so for a while, then when turned off and on again the gauges lit up like a christmas tree, obviously a fault reading. Bike would only rev for half a second and die. After long time reading online manual, checking for codes (23 showed up - cam position sensor), I checked CPS wiring - all hooked up okay. Did resistance test - okay. Checked online with this site for similar problem, came across old thread with same problem.

Seems when the battery is low it throws up the code 23! Once charged fully bike should start again. So, bike on long charge mode. It had been test run couple of times last week by shop after rebuild, but I'm thinking they would have given it a quick charge (maybe) then ran it, and put it away for delivery. It had been 3 months since it buggered up so should expect battery to be low - I did check it today and showed 12.4 V, but not under load and still may be not enough. Will know tomorrow.
 
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