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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I had my H2 with stage 2 SC gears dynoed with 93 pump gas a couple of days ago and it went great all the way to the red line, perfect curve!

Today i went back to the dyno but made two changes, i used Q16 race fuel and used a Sprint Race air filter.

The weather was nearly identical for the two days, cold and low humidity.

I guess my two new changes and making the PCV adjustments to compensate for the Q16 proved too much for the stock fuel pump, and we experienced the dreaded high rpm fuel issues when the stock pump just cannot cope.

We tried for an hour to work around the issue making various adjustments but we never got one clean run with Q16 :(

Time to install the AEM fuel pump and try again!
 

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Several things there that may make a difference,
Was it breaking down or just running lean up top ? when did you last change your plugs , and have you changed the gap ?
Has it been flashed to stop the primary injectors ramping out as the secondarys ramp in , and as i have not used thePC V on this bike, does it control one or both sets of injectors, if one which ?

Good info on the Q16 here C16 or Q16? VP Racing Fuels Explains the Tuning Differences you can think of the c16 and 93 as similar as far as the tuning differences

And another thing a member struck the other day and mentioned here on post 46 http://www.ninjah2.org/forum/ninja-h2-h2r-build-area/16378-lsr-h2-build-5.html
and here post 73 http://www.ninjah2.org/forum/ninja-h2-h2r-build-area/16378-lsr-h2-build-8.html
what we do know since then is the ignition is true capacitor discharge and you cant just plug an aftermarket unit in to get more power
& the primarys do reduce output as the secondarys come in
And the declining effective fuel pressures make a huge difference to available injector flow , and that is been addressed now with a pressure referenced regulator becoming available soon
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Never changed the plugs in 7.5k miles or the gap.

It just ran a clean 270 rwhp and 112 lb/ft torque on 93 pump two days ago and ran clean to the redline, so she seems to be running strong without velocity stacks or an IC.

Thx for the feedback!
 

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It sure seems weird that changing fuel would cause the fuel pump to not deliver enough fuel. It can't be using that much more fuel. Put a fuel pump pressure tester on it and see if the pressure drops, if not it is not your fuel pump.
I'd be willing to bet that 1. the octane is too high and it just can't burn it fast enough. Or 2. it is detecting a knock and rolling back the timing.
Remember what octane does. It does not give you more power. Actually it gives you less. What is does do is slow and smooth out the burn to prevent pre-ignition and allow the timing to advance as much as possible.
In a computer system with knock sensors the timing will advance as much as possible up to the point of pre-ignition by detecting the knock.
So to put this into perspective. In a system that doesn't have knock sensors and you put it on a dyno with say 91 Octane and get the timing just perfect so it is on the brink of knocking and it will produce X HP. Then put in say 95 Octane, you will make less power. If the system has knock sensors, it will advance the timing to the point of knocking and you will make more power, up to a point. Too much octane slows the burn so much that incomplete ignition happens and away goes the power. This is a function of RPM and the amount of time it takes to burn. Lower RPMs allow more time.
 

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I had my H2 with stage 2 SC gears dynoed with 93 pump gas a couple of days ago and it went great all the way to the red line, perfect curve!

Today i went back to the dyno but made two changes, i used Q16 race fuel and used a Sprint Race air filter.

The weather was nearly identical for the two days, cold and low humidity.

I guess my two new changes and making the PCV adjustments to compensate for the Q16 proved too much for the stock fuel pump, and we experienced the dreaded high rpm fuel issues when the stock pump just cannot cope.

We tried for an hour to work around the issue making various adjustments but we never got one clean run with Q16 :(

Time to install the AEM fuel pump and try again!

I have dyno runs with Q16, P16 filter, and Supercharger gears with NO issues and made 10hp more everywhere in the powerband. Something else is going on. You've been itching to install an AEM for a while now so go ahead and get it over with. Just don't be disappointed if you find you're still having issues.

If you post up a graph from the runs you might get better direction from the forum as to what could be going on. For all we know, your tire could've been skipping on the wheel - usually happens at high rpm.
 

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It sure seems weird that changing fuel would cause the fuel pump to not deliver enough fuel. It can't be using that much more fuel. Put a fuel pump pressure tester on it and see if the pressure drops, if not it is not your fuel pump.
I'd be willing to bet that 1. the octane is too high and it just can't burn it fast enough. Or 2. it is detecting a knock and rolling back the timing.

Valid points but unlikely in his case. Q16 works well in the H2 with SC gears and Q16 won't cause the motor to knock. If anything, it'll protect against knock better than the 93 he was running.
 

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Several things there that may make a difference,
Was it breaking down or just running lean up top ? when did you last change your plugs , and have you changed the gap ?
Has it been flashed to stop the primary injectors ramping out as the secondarys ramp in , and as i have not used thePC V on this bike, does it control one or both sets of injectors, if one which ?
The PCV controls only the primaries. To control the secondaries, you need the secondary fuel module. I have both modules but have found that the SFM is not needed as the 20% fuel of the secondaries that comes into play after 10k rpm (in my Flash file) is all that is required to get a good tune.
 

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Valid points but unlikely in his case. Q16 works well in the H2 with SC gears and Q16 won't cause the motor to knock. If anything, it'll protect against knock better than the 93 he was running.
I would think so. Q16s Octane rating is like 120+. But it is possible it is too high for the timing.
I just read that they say the "The added fuel flow also effectively increases the octane of Q16 by 6-8 numbers above its standard ASTM octane rating". Hey maybe I am wrong, but how much more fuel flow do you get? Or is is so thin with the all the "oxygenated" that the pump cavitates?
To me with all that octane rating (120+) there isn't enough timing advance to allow a complete burn, It is just overkill. If you are not knocking adding octane kills power, and he wasn't knocking at 93. You have to add timing to take advantage of all that octane.
 

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Thanks Nate, sort of suspected that, had similar problems with a PC on a turbo gix 1k once , fine once flashed , but it needed all the duty cycle available

Yeah the Q16 reads good, fast flame, easily ignited, no changing plugs as often as the C16 , i would go through 1-2 sets of plugs in a dyno session with that stuff some days but did it give you a great safety margine when pushing the limits on a high boost bike :)

The 5% extra fuel used with Q16 may be enough to tip the scales here ,
Yes dyno graph without too much smoothing with rpm not mph and A/F can help pick problems
 

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I would think so. Q16s Octane rating is like 120+. But it is possible it is too high for the timing.
I just read that they say the "The added fuel flow also effectively increases the octane of Q16 by 6-8 numbers above its standard ASTM octane rating". Hey maybe I am wrong, but how much more fuel flow do you get? Or is is so thin with the all the "oxygenated" that the pump cavitates?
To me with all that octane rating (120+) there isn't enough timing advance to allow a complete burn, It is just overkill. If you are not knocking adding octane kills power, and he wasn't knocking at 93. You have to add timing to take advantage of all that octane.
The "oxygenates" in Q16 are probably alky based and cool the charge , add in the extra fuel needed to maintain the A/F and the in cyl temp just pre ignition would be lower and where they probably get there "extra"octane, it may have a lower boiling point, but not likely a problem with the intank pump

We dont know he wasnt knocking with 93, i have only heard of 1 guy so far that has logged the spark events , and his pulled a couple of degrees , circumstances a little different to this , but this is one area than needs attention as we have no idea just what the knock protocols are
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have dyno runs with Q16, P16 filter, and Supercharger gears with NO issues and made 10hp more everywhere in the powerband. Something else is going on. You've been itching to install an AEM for a while now so go ahead and get it over with. Just don't be disappointed if you find you're still having issues.

If you post up a graph from the runs you might get better direction from the forum as to what could be going on. For all we know, your tire could've been skipping on the wheel - usually happens at high rpm.
We also considered spinning rear tire but it was tied down tight numerous times and there was no evidence it was spinning. It was also a very good condition tire at 30psi.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Valid points but unlikely in his case. Q16 works well in the H2 with SC gears and Q16 won't cause the motor to knock. If anything, it'll protect against knock better than the 93 he was running.
That is what the tuner said as well, he said he uses Q16 in his Turbo bikes making 600+ hp.
 

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Service manual suggests having already changed plugs by your mileage, and we know with gears etc the service intervals increase. Would be a good one to check off the list of possibles. Just thinkin out loud.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Service manual suggests having already changed plugs by your mileage, and we know with gears etc the service intervals increase. Would be a good one to check off the list of possibles. Just thinkin out loud.
Good advice, Thx.

Where is the best place to get these spark plugs, i seem to remember reading that they were a PITA to get the correct ones!


.... or is Kawasaki the safest bet?
 

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I bought a couple of sets off the internet.Plugs is plugs.Easy to find.I'd just go with the factory ones...they're not 'kawasaki' anyway.NGK I believe.
 

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Just some food for thought but a couple of people hit me up on facebook regarding broken tips on their spark plugs. It seems to be a common occurrence on the H2. The bike will still run though. Might not hurt to check it out.
 

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We also considered spinning rear tire but it was tied down tight numerous times and there was no evidence it was spinning. It was also a very good condition tire at 30psi.
Is there a reason why you wont post your dyno graph? What brought you to the assumption that you maxed out the fuel pump.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The dyno curve was braking up badly at high rpm compare to the 93 octane pump gas one that was taken two days earlier, that was perfect all the way to 270 rwhp.

My dyno guy asked me not to post the dyno because things quickly get misinterpreted on the internet and he did not want to get a bad rap for something that was outside of his control!

I don't blame him!
 
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