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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
(moved discussion from another thread so not to take it too far off topic)

Kawasaki's blurb on the ECO mode is:

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The Economical Riding Indicator

Using high-precision electronic control for engine management, Kawasaki models can achieve a high level of fuel efficiency. However, fuel consumption is greatly affected by throttle use, gear selection, and other elements under the rider's control.
The Economical Riding Indicator is a function that indicates when current riding conditions are consuming a low amount of fuel. The system continuously monitors fuel consumption, regardless of vehicle speed, engine speed, throttle position and other riding conditions. When fuel consumption is low for a given speed (i.e. fuel efficiency is high), an "ECO" mark appears on the instrument panel's LCD screen. By riding so that the "ECO" mark remains on, fuel consumption can be reduced.
While effective vehicle speed and engine speed may vary by model, paying attention to conditions that cause the "ECO" mark to appear can help riders improve their fuel efficiency – a handy way to increase cruising range. Further, keeping fuel consumption low also helps minimise negative impact on the environment.
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I'm of the opinion (yeah, just an opinion and like backsides, everyone has one) that this is just an indicator that what your doing is as fuel efficient as you could hope for and that the eco mode doesn't do any tuning of the engine.

@Turbo329 has seen something different on the dyno though so I'm intrigued what's going on.

The Eco mode leans the mixture and I've seen it on the dyno. I added nearly 50% more fuel to the range where the Eco mode operates and it did nothing to the AFR. Kawasaki's statement is not incorrect. However, it is incomplete.
Three questions...

1: Did you have the stock narrow-band O2 sensor in when you did this?
2: Was the air switching valve removed / PAIR valve blocked?
3: Was the AFR measured with an exhaust sniffer on the dyno?

I don't doubt what you saw, just trying to understand how the bike could "override" you making part of the map richer.
 

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For sure the indicator is just an indicator.

I guess the question is whether on top of there being an indicator, there is an Eco mode during which the ECU functions differently.

At least one other Kawasaki model has an Eco mode which uses a leaner map: https://www.kawasaki-cp.khi.co.jp/technology/engine/tech_fueleconomy_assistance_mode_e.html though the rider has to specifically select that one.

I found no information outside of here on whether the H2 ECU operates differently while the Eco indicator is on.

A way it might be possible, despite O2 sensor being removed, that adding fuel to a map would give no change to AFR would be if the ECU were using a different map under those conditions. I'm definitely not saying that is the case, it's just an idea to be supported or refuted by other people's facts. (EDIT: Apparently no, what Turbo329 said was he was adding it to the PCV map, not to the ECU's own map, yet still it wasn't showing up in the AFR.)

Lastly: On Bob's findings with his Guhl flash, which has some low rpm issues that some other Guhl flashes reportedly do not, I am wondering if this could be related to his being a relatively early flash.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That's an interesting link @trenace

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Fuel Economy Assistance Mode

... keeping engine rpm under 6,000 rpm, throttle under 30%, and speed under 160 km/h. Nevertheless, especially when used in conjunction with the Economical Riding Indicator, this mode can contribute to significant savings in fuel costs over long distances.

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Certainly sounds like a handlebar switched lean map that is turned-off if you "break" those rules.

...he was adding it to the PCV map, not to the ECU's own map, yet still it wasn't showing up in the AFR
That bit has got me stumped unless the PCV is over ridding an "over rich" condition or the bike was still pushing air into the exhaust giving a lean reading --- I can't make sense of that.
 

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Three questions...

1: Did you have the stock narrow-band O2 sensor in when you did this?
2: Was the air switching valve removed / PAIR valve blocked?
3: Was the AFR measured with an exhaust sniffer on the dyno?

I don't doubt what you saw, just trying to understand how the bike could "override" you making part of the map richer.

1 - The O2 sensor was disabled but left in place at the time of the dyno run.
2 - The Air Switching Valve was disabled in the flash. Removal is not necessary
3 - Yes
 

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(moved discussion from another thread so not to take it too far off topic)

Kawasaki's blurb on the ECO mode is:

----------------------

The Economical Riding Indicator

Using high-precision electronic control for engine management, Kawasaki models can achieve a high level of fuel efficiency. However, fuel consumption is greatly affected by throttle use, gear selection, and other elements under the rider's control.
The Economical Riding Indicator is a function that indicates when current riding conditions are consuming a low amount of fuel. The system continuously monitors fuel consumption, regardless of vehicle speed, engine speed, throttle position and other riding conditions. When fuel consumption is low for a given speed (i.e. fuel efficiency is high), an "ECO" mark appears on the instrument panel's LCD screen. By riding so that the "ECO" mark remains on, fuel consumption can be reduced.
.

The language they are using is a bit misleading here but unintentional. The Eco mode is only activated within a certain rpm range. If you're out of the range it is not triggered.

"By riding so that the ECO mark remains on, fuel consumption can be reduced" ........reduced by the ECU is the part they left out here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
1 - The O2 sensor was disabled but left in place at the time of the dyno run.
2 - The Air Switching Valve was disabled in the flash. Removal is not necessary
3 - Yes
I'm really under the impression that all the different flash tools only disable the error light on the dash after you remove the device and none of the flash tools actually disable the device. (as I understand it, I could be wrong)

but if that is true then your bike would still be stuffing air in the exhaust and the dyno sniffer in the muffler would continue to read lean even though you added fuel with the PC5.

What does it look like on your dyno graphs?
Can you also see the low RPM "stutter" in the graphs?
 

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Can somebody help me out here. If the O2 sensor is disabled how does the ECU no what the air fuel ratio is and what to adjust it to. If eco mode kicks on and the ECU leans the air fuel ratio how does it know where to stop?
 

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but if that is true then your bike would still be stuffing air in the exhaust and the dyno sniffer in the muffler would continue to read lean even though you added fuel with the PC5.

ECO mode uses the ECU to manage the AFR through the injectors, not the Air Switching Valve. The ASV only serves one function unrelated to ECO mode because the ASV's operation isn't dependent on a particular RPM range for it to be active.

I know this because we were adding fuel real time to the ECO mode range and it still ran like crap in the dyno room and showed no change in the AFR.

The ECU has some overrides built into it that no one has been able to crack yet.
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong,but,using a PCV and THAT mapping bypasses all ECU set fuelings.Simple enough.My understanding of the ECO display shows the optimum zone for mileage.It never shuts off.But now it's reading data from the 'new' mapping...and THOSE values will determine the 'new' ECO readings.Say you lean your engine out.The ECU will not change those settings.If the motor grenades,it grenades.The ECO system will still read the optimum fueling zone,even if she's lean,or fat.Otherwise,how could you ever get a consistent ECO zone if the ECU was changing things around.

The flash can change the mapping...but it doesn't wander around anywhere.The PCV changes the mapping while retaining the stock config.It doesn't wander around anywhere either.Unless I'm like REALLY out of it,there would be no point to adding ANY different mapping if the ECU simply went in and changed it.So the only thing I see that's 'kind of' misleading,unintentionally,is where it states 'Using high-precision electronic control for engine management'.
"reduced by the ECU is the part they left out here"...I'm not readin it that way.????
 

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Can somebody help me out here. If the O2 sensor is disabled how does the ECU no what the air fuel ratio is and what to adjust it to. If eco mode kicks on and the ECU leans the air fuel ratio how does it know where to stop?
The ECU has presets built in. So if a sensor is broken or disabled, the ECU is programmed for a default response. (Section 17 in the Service Manual Pages 12-19)
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong,but,using a PCV and THAT mapping bypasses all ECU set fuelings.Simple enough.My understanding of the ECO display shows the optimum zone for mileage.It never shuts off.But now it's reading data from the 'new' mapping...and THOSE values will determine the 'new' ECO readings.Say you lean your engine out.The ECU will not change those settings.If the motor grenades,it grenades.The ECO system will still read the optimum fueling zone,even if she's lean,or fat.Otherwise,how could you ever get a consistent ECO zone if the ECU was changing things around.

The flash can change the mapping...but it doesn't wander around anywhere.The PCV changes the mapping while retaining the stock config.It doesn't wander around anywhere either.Unless I'm like REALLY out of it,there would be no point to adding ANY different mapping if the ECU simply went in and changed it.So the only thing I see that's 'kind of' misleading,unintentionally,is where it states 'Using high-precision electronic control for engine management'.
"reduced by the ECU is the part they left out here"...I'm not readin it that way.????
Who knows man? ECU reads voltage. It's not reading the PCV (The H2 PCV doesn't hook up to the primary injectors. That may have something to do with it). Somehow the ECO mode is causing the primary injectors to spray less fuel.

I threw roughly 50% (I think it was 46% to be exact) more fuel in the ECO range (via the PCV) and it did not change the AFR. Everywhere else in the graph the fueling responded with much less than 10%. I'm not right on everything obviously. ...and I'm no Kawi engineer. But I've literally spent nearly 50 hours on the dyno tuning the H2 since last winter. I'm pretty certain it's the ECO mode.
 

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Yeah,limp mode.But I think IF you tuned the bike say,dangerously lean,mapped it that way with a flash or PCV...then I don't think the ECU is gonna do ANYTHING to save it.Am I wrong?It may be reading those values,but it's stuck having to allow them.What it sounds like is being said is that...if you hypothetically installed a PCV,bypassed the factory values,the ECU would override any 'dangerous' settings in the fueling of the PCV.
My understanding is that the 'eco DISPLAY' is showing in real time the mileage.It's not changing anything through the ECU.'Mode' is misleading.That's a 'display' function.Like having it on 'current','avg',or 'range' at current calculations.That's my take on that.I would think if it somehow talked to the ECU and said...'let's change this'...there would be no point to remapping at all.?
 

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Yeah,limp mode.But I think IF you tuned the bike say,dangerously lean,mapped it that way with a flash or PCV...then I don't think the ECU is gonna do ANYTHING to save it.Am I wrong?It may be reading those values,but it's stuck having to allow them.What it sounds like is being said is that...if you hypothetically installed a PCV,bypassed the factory values,the ECU would override any 'dangerous' settings in the fueling of the PCV.
My understanding is that the 'eco DISPLAY' is showing in real time the mileage.It's not changing anything through the ECU.'Mode' is misleading.That's a 'display' function.Like having it on 'current','avg',or range at current calculations.That's my take on that.
The ECO mode is only in a small rpm range. ..and I was not referring to limp mode for this particular instance but yes, you are right, the ECU will put the bike into Limp mode for various sensors that go faulty.

To answer your question, if you run the bike dangerously lean under load (100% throttle) with the PCV, you will cause detonation/knocking due to the heat buildup, and yes, the knock sensor will send a message to the ECU which will in turn pull timing. So yes, you are wrong when you say it is "stuck having to allow them". ;)

Running really lean at low cruise rpm poses little or no real danger to the bike. I forgot where the ECO mode put the AFR but I do remember that it was over 14.1
 

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Well,I think the ECO display would be pretty useless then if when one was 'in the zone' and the fueling was being changed through whatever electronic means there are.I mean...how would you ever know that a particular fueling value was beneficial to mileage?You couldn't depend on it if it was moving around,right?

I don't think the injectors are being manipulated by any ECO parameter input.I don't know why you got your results...or how...but there HAS to be a baseline for the most efficient fueling setup somewhere in the ECU(for the fully stock configuration).Seems to me,adding a PCV is that 'baseline' now.So the ECO program is gonna read what the 'zone' is for THAT mapping.It'll be different from a stock ECU map.???But thinking that it's changing any fueling while riding along would(to me)be like totally discounting any actual mileage.It may as well not even be there.IDK.

Maybe I really don't understand how the whole a/f deal is operating.Or the injector pulses.
Not tryin to argue or anything like that.Just tryin to understand.
 

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Jesus, this is getting too technical for me:(

I'm of the mode, key in, start up, off you go, have some fun, if it aint broke dont try and fix it;)

I do however enjoy reading post like this, sorry I;m a bit to thick to contribute in a helpful way

Rob
 

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"changing any fueling while riding along".I know the a/f does change under conditions.But stable riding with steady throttle...not too much I would think.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The ECU has presets built in. So if a sensor is broken or disabled, the ECU is programmed for a default response. (Section 17 in the Service Manual Pages 12-19)
Nice reply @Turbo329 and good lead too.

Section 17-20 Self diagnosis System

- service code 64, Air Switching Valve, no backup
- service code 33, Oxygen Sensor, If fail (no signal, wiring short or open) the ECU stops current to the heater and it stops the feedback control with the oxygen sensor.
- service code 94, Fuel Supply System, Fuel correction value exceeds a threshold, no backup.

At the end of that section (17-22) it list the 4 different methods that the ECU will use to correct (picture attached)

1: Limp Home Mode
2: D-J Method
3: a-N Method (alpha-N, I don't know how to do alpha on this keyboard!)
4: Actuator Malfunction Backup Mode.


Number 2 might be an interesting lead for the "stutter" problem in the other thread.

D-J Method: When the engine load is light like at idling or low speed, the ECU determines the injection quantity by calculating from the throttle vacuum and engine speed.

Seems the only listed time that the ECU will use the D-J Method is for:
17-16 service code 11, Throttle Position Sensor.
1: ECU sets the DFI in the D-J Method
2: ECU uses the learned middle position value of the TPS 1 as a throttle sensor output.
3: Air switching valve solenoid will be on
(in addition rain mode, KTRC, KEBC, KQS, KLCM will stop).

It describes the right conditions for the stutter problem but I would expect the dash to light-up like a Christmas tree if all those other functions are turned off.
 

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Nice reply @Turbo329
D-J Method: When the engine load is light like at idling or low speed, the ECU determines the injection quantity by calculating from the throttle vacuum and engine speed.
There you go! That has to be it. The PCV doesn't control the primary injectors directly. It is connected via crank position sensor, throttle position sensor, and gear position sensor if I recall correctly. So the ECU still retains dominant control of the primary injectors and if it can meter fuel by determining the above (D-J Method), then that is the ECO mode in a nutshell.

If that isn't how it's doing it then I don't know what is.
 

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(The H2 PCV doesn't hook up to the primary injectors. That may have something to do with it).

... I threw roughly 50% (I think it was 46% to be exact) more fuel in the ECO range (via the PCV) and it did not change the AFR.
It's definitely true that the PCV acts on only one set of injectors.

If it acts only on the secondaries and not the primaries, then at the point where you were richening up the map but nothing was happening with the AFR, how could the PCV have been expected to affect the AFR?

It seems to me (I may be missing something) there would be no need for any strange actions of the ECU to reverse everything you did: rather, there was never any way it could have done anything in those operating conditions, ECO indicator or no. But it would happen to be the case that when the ECO light is on, the secondaries surely won't be working, so the PCV isn't working and whether the bike runs well or not depends entirely on whether the factory map still works about right for those conditions despite changing the pipe, etc.

True, or off somehow?
 
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