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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone have the specs for the H2 and H2R camshafts ?

And also the camshaft upgrade that was announced in another thread, anything happening there ?
 

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Does anyone have the specs for the H2 and H2R camshafts ?

And also the camshaft upgrade that was announced in another thread, anything happening there ?
Hi Oz, These are straight from the manuals. I know nothing of a cam upgrade.


H2 Specs

Cam Height
Intake 33.743 - 33.847
Exhaust 33.943 - 34.057


Valve Timing
Intake
Open 37
Close 47
Duration 264


Exhaust
Open 50
Close 30
Duration 260

H2R Specs

Cam Height
Intake 35.443 - 35.557
Exhaust 34.443 - 34.557


Valve Timing
Intake
Open 65
Close 75
Duration 320


Exhaust

Open 75
Close 25
Duration 280
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks
Now thats very interesting
Real low cam centrelines for the intake even for the huge H2R cam
and conservative exhaust centerline on the H2 but way out there on the 2R

H2R ex cam specs up like the 08 zx10
 

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Thanks
Now thats very interesting
Real low cam centrelines for the intake even for the huge H2R cam
and conservative exhaust centerline on the H2 but way out there on the 2R

H2R ex cam specs up like the 08 zx10
When I showed these to Rich Sims, he had much the same comments as you.
 

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So.... someone ask the the question they are dying to know?

The age old question?....

"What is are the best cam degree numbers for my _____ ?" (H2, ZX-14, Busa, aka modern sportbike - you fill in the blank)

My blanket response: "Is your engine stock?"
Them: "yes"
Me: "stock numbers"
Them: "but, I heard one-oh (fill in the blank) and one-oh (fill in the blank)"
Me: "It's still stock"
Them: "Yeah but so-and-so says..."
Me: "So and so can second-guess a multi-million dollar research and development team about the product they designed/tested and engineered if he likes. I have spent countless hours on the race track and dyno trying to 'beat' the stock numbers... I finally got it through my thick head, they know more about their engines than I do. It's stock."

Let the bench racing begin!>:D

Brock
 

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Discussion Starter #7
No disagreement here , over camming and wrong combos just wastes money

When i look at the H2 timing i see cams setup for torque , make it more usefull in the areas hurt by the low compression
they were shutting down the top end electronically anyway

Personally my aims are a bit different , Like Scott, Salt is my playground i dont care if i loose midrange as long as it can pull the tall first gear to the main power range
Ultimate plan is bigger compressor , intercooled , bigger cams ,E85 and probably a bigger bore exhaust
I want the bigger compressor over regearing the SC to keep the intake temps lower
Intercooler should be interesting , have a guy lined up here to do a billet plenum with Water/air cooler sandwiched between halves , and i already have front mount heat exchangers and electric water pumps from my Suzuki builds
Cams probably somewhere inbetween the H2 and H2R , thats going to take some experimenting , timing probably around 108-110
and if it makes the HP i hope the range of available exhausts is probably too small , but i dont have enough experiance in NA/SC stuff to understand what my exhaust needs are yet
E 85 is giving me great intake air cooling on the Suzukis, i see a 25C drop between the plenum and intake valve (EGT in port) , but will probably need an upgrade of pump and injectors
Thats the mad plan anyway , i think 250mph is within reach maybe more , depending on aero improvements
 

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Intercooler should be interesting , have a guy lined up here to do a billet plenum with Water/air cooler sandwiched between halves
Oz, may be coincidence but I wonder if the post I saw on the Facebook H2 group yesterday is your project. That post included pictures that mimiced your description. I no longer can find that post on Facebook and now believe it was yanked.

Don't suppose you could share pictures of your project or if it is the Facebook post, share what happened to it?

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I saw them,not mine though apart from the first pic in the set of several was my sheetmetal plenum on my road bike busa as i was building it
rest were RCC i think , but could have been from any one of several others that produce them
Same concept and i would not be surprised if there were others being developed
Water/air coolers while heavier than an air to air are about the only option when room is so tight
they dont hold a real lot of water , about 2 litres , pump draws a couple of amps , and a few braided hoses with anodised fittings brightens up the look

My H2 (second hand) was supposed to arrive today, but held up in shipping , now mid next week ,
 

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I did my camshafts I loose a bit of power until 9000 rpm but 24hp more at 14000 rpm

Bike works good and faster and I'm happy with it
 

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I did my camshafts I loose a bit of power until 9000 rpm but 24hp more at 14000 rpm

Bike works good and faster and I'm happy with it
malumat,

You installed H2R camshafts - correct? At the H2R suggested lobe centers also, I would assume?

Brock
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ok reread your posts about the camshafts ,nice work :)
that sort of power curve would be fine for my needs ,
what does it feel like in the real world, do you even notice the lesser power down low ?
 

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Kawasaki has traditionally used "seat-to-seat" valve timing in their specifications, not the more usual valve event timing at either 0.050" (USA) or 1mm (everywhere else) lift. This gives a bigger duration number and it's not guaranteed that the opening ramp will be equal to the closing ramp, which means the point of maximum valve lift isn't necessarily in the middle between the opening and closing times. If we *ass*ume that the cam lobe is symmetrical (and knowing fully that this assumption could be wrong!) it looks like the H2 version of this engine uses a pretty normal overlap period but it is shutting the intake valve pretty early - this is in the interest of making more torque at low revs before the engine comes on boost. The exhaust timing is pretty close to normal.

The H2R's cam timing is ... interesting. They are opening the intake valve well before TDC, the valve overlap period is not even close to being centered around TDC (which is the usual practice). I have a funny feeling that they are attempting to purge out the cylinder of hot gases during the tail end of the exhaust stroke using fresh mixture! This would be atrocious to do on an emission controlled engine in which fuel consumption meant anything whatsoever. The intake closing timing - bearing in mind that this is "seat to seat" timing, not to 1mm/0.050" lift which is pretty much where it stops flowing much at higher revs - is oriented more towards top end power.

Brock's comments about cam timing agree with what I've seen: for all the fuss people make over this, changes of a couple degrees here and there of lobe center timing are for the most part splitting hairs and IF there is a difference, anything good at one point in the rev range will be offset by something bad elsewhere, and nothing good comes of significant changes away from stock. With a DOHC 4-valve normally-aspirated engine, in the absence of specs, "set them to 105 degrees" generally won't be wrong by enough to matter. Forced induction changes things, but still, the engineers at the factory knew what they were doing. In some cases their hands were forced by emissions or fuel economy or noise requirements but we are not exactly dealing with a Toyota Prius engine here ...
 

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H2r cams lose bottom end and mid range but.......... if you add stage 2 gears and maybe an ic, the extra mid range may compensate for the loses?
 

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That depends what you mean by "compensate".

Centrifugal superchargers naturally make more and more boost as they spin faster. What that means is that below their design operating RPM range, they don't make much boost. If you gear them up to spin faster, they'll build boost faster. But right down at the bottom, 10% more than peanuts is still peanuts. And intercooling doesn't do a thing for you if there's no boost pressure to take the heat out of. If it didn't make any boost to begin with then there's no heat to remove, either.

What it means is, right off the bottom of the rev range, there is no "compensating". The H2 engine is set up by its pretty conservative cam timing to naturally have good bottom end and mid-range torque. The engine itself won't "breathe" as well at higher revs because of the conservative cam timing ... but that is what the supercharger is for. This, by the way, is a very common strategy with automotive forced-induction engines and the intent is to have a wide RPM range that gives useful torque. The engine itself makes good torque off the bottom when the forced induction hasn't done much yet, then the forced induction takes over as the revs go up.

If you put in wild cam timing, the forced induction still doesn't do much off the bottom of the rev range, so it will lose bottom end torque. But if the engine breathes better up high in the revs, it will make more power up there. It will be more "peaky".

I daresay the H2 is the better street bike for having the conservative cam timing ... even if it means a smaller total horsepower number.

If the H2R is controlling heat the way I think it does - by blowing fresh charge through the cylinder during a very long valve overlap period - that's an atrocious engineering cop-out if I've ever seen one.
 

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An untimely reply, to be sure:

Although I certainly haven't seen everything, I haven't seen anything like the H2R's cam timing before. Among the unusual features, intake lobe center of 95 degrees, exhaust 115 degrees!

But on the overlap, the H2R's 90 degree overlap, on total duration, is actually less than the 2016 ZX-10R (94 degrees.)

What's very different between their overlaps is the overlap begins much earlier on the H2R and also ends much earlier.

I am not sure but if anything I'd think fresh charge would be less likely to blow through in the times before TDC than after, so moving the overlap so early may be to counter increased blow through of fresh charge that can tend to happen with supercharging, rather than to cause it. A thought only.
 

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An untimely reply, to be sure:

Although I certainly haven't seen everything, I haven't seen anything like the H2R's cam timing before. Among the unusual features, intake lobe center of 95 degrees, exhaust 115 degrees!

But on the overlap, the H2R's 90 degree overlap, on total duration, is actually less than the 2016 ZX-10R (94 degrees.)

What's very different between their overlaps is the overlap begins much earlier on the H2R and also ends much earlier.

I am not sure but if anything I'd think fresh charge would be less likely to blow through in the times before TDC than after, so moving the overlap so early may be to counter increased blow through of fresh charge that can tend to happen with supercharging, rather than to cause it. A thought only.
Great info. What's the P-V at those lobe centers?

Brock
Brocks Performance
 

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Thank you Brock, you made my day as I'm a big fan of what you've done and are doing with the H2, as well as of the Brock's pipe I had for my ZX-12R. It was great.

Unfortunately I don't have piston to valve clearance figures. I have only been able to go by the Kawasaki manuals for the timing figures.

Hopefully at some point a member with H2R cams will measure their results and let us know!
 

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Thank you Brock, you made my day as I'm a big fan of what you've done and are doing with the H2, as well as of the Brock's pipe I had for my ZX-12R. It was great.

Unfortunately I don't have piston to valve clearance figures. I have only been able to go by the Kawasaki manuals for the timing figures.

Hopefully at some point a member with H2R cams will measure their results and let us know!
lol, thanks for the kind words @trenace. We end up with LC numbers like that in Super Sport style engines, after milling the head, to create extra P-V.

It's difficult to explain to people who ask "what's the best lobe center numbers for my engine?" with the answer "the numbers which make the best power... without destroying your engine. We prefer the closest to stock as you can get, while leaving enough P-V to not allow the pistons and valves to crash into each other!"

We sell these tools to measure piston to valve clearance.

If you look at the product description tab, it helps explain. Engines are fun stuff :D

Brock
Brocks Performance
 
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