On off throttle transition sucks! - Kawasaki Ninja H2 Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 10-20-2019, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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On off throttle transition sucks!

Guys I have a 2015 H2 flashed with The Don Guhl flash then a custom tune also after I added the stage two gears, velocity stacks , BST rims , -2 rear gear and a ton of other mods. The problem is I hate the on off transition from on the gas to zero throttle input. Itís so freaking jerky Iím considering trading her in for something different. I added a external blow off valve to help and it did a bit but itís still so harsh at any rpm I really donít enjoy riding her. Any ideas? Are you guys experiencing this? Maybe itís just the super charged motor not sure. The fuel map is tuned very good so not really sure. I love the way she looks and to ride her is fantastic but the **** transition is **** near making me wanna sell her.
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post #2 of 18 Old 10-20-2019, 06:23 PM
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Mine is the same but I've got used to it and it seems worse if you ride other bikes too. I'm sure there is a fix out there somewhere.

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post #3 of 18 Old 10-20-2019, 07:48 PM
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I have a stage 2 brock's PCv map.Guhl flash for the stage 2.On/off throttle and low rpm speeds she's fine.Not too jerky.Definitely smoother at low moving like in 1st and second.

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post #4 of 18 Old 10-20-2019, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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I just looked over my PVC maps and made some changes to smooth her out. I’ll have to give her a try and see if that helps. Hoping so because I don’t want to trade her in but if i can’t figure it out I just might. ��

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post #5 of 18 Old 10-20-2019, 09:01 PM
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Do you have deceleration fuel cut disabled?

Here's a trick that I did with my ZX10R for which - at the time - there was no way to disable deceleration fuel cut.

You actually want the engine to make as *little* power as possible just above the deceleration fuel cut threshold. If it makes as little as possible when it's still feeding a tiny smidge of fuel, there's less difference between that, and having it switched completely off because of decel fuel cut (or misfire, if you have decel fuel cut disabled).

How to do that ... Lean, lean, lean at 0% - 2% throttle position in the PowerCommander map! As lean as you can get away with. In some places my PCIII map on that bike is -25% or -30%. Took some trial and error to see what I could get away with. But the end result is that the bike is a real sweetheart on back roads. (And it doesn't make spark plugs black and make the engine oil smell like fuel.) Air-fuel ratio is 15.5 - 16.5:1 in this range.

Don't worry about overheating or burned valves or that sort of thing. At 2% throttle position, the engine isn't making enough power to hurt itself.
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post #6 of 18 Old 10-21-2019, 05:19 AM
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I have tuned for that idle transition area using the DJ Autotune with a momentary switch connected to enable logging only when pressed/held. Put target AFR as GoFaster suggested in the autotune target table. This could be done on a drum dyno if you have one. Otherwise SAFELY Raise the rear wheel off the ground and put the bike in top gear while idling and a good fan blowing the radiator. On attached laptop highlight the 0% column and methodically adjust target AFR up/lean then down/rich till just before RPM's drop or misfires occur. In this state the drivetrain friction loads the motor enough to adjust for a smooth power idle. Do the same for the 2% column and 5% AFR targets if possible and ZERO out all the other columns. Get a helper to hold the throttle while you adjust AFR's. This gives rich leaning static baseline AFR's to start with.



Once that is done it is time for road tune, Find an open empty SAFE piece of road. With the momentary switch on the handlebar and I use the DJ LCD display attached, Idle down the road in 2nd or 3rd gear. The idle should be strong enough to pull smoothly. then at the same time press the autotune enable button and smoothly open the throttle to 5%-10% and HOLD it. The bike accelerates then once rpm's stabilize release the enable button and go back to idle. Repeat the process a few time to populate the autotune correction tables and apply the corrections. The part throttle transition should now be smooth. The reason for the momentary switch/ enable button is so you only capture correction table entries when the engine is accelerating. Decelerating O2 reading will pollute the correction table with bogus data.


Once you have the idle transition sorted if you want to go for a mileage/cruising zone use the autotune again same way on the road. Set all autotune AFR target values to zero. Then set the cruising RPM/AFR target values you want into the the autotune logger and go for a ride. At steady cruise RPM press/hold the enable button and very slowly move the throttle a bit +/- to fill the RPM's range you want to cruise at with AFR corrected data. Save the correction table to the DJ PC and save some gas. Create a mileage map and use the PCV map switch feature to go between mileage/power maps at will.

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post #7 of 18 Old 10-21-2019, 10:18 AM Thread Starter
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Guys thanks very much for responding. So I looked at my maps and ignition tables. And the first two columns in the timing map are 0% and 2% have zeros in them and them it goes to -2 all the way up to 40% then they are -3 degrees. Also in my fueling map the numbers don’t seem to flow or be smooth transitions like you would think. Here is the fueling from 3,000 to 7,000.

6 15 19 25 5 0 5 5 5 5
6 15 19 25 5 0 5 5 5 5
6 15 22 25 5 5 5 5 5 5
6 15 22 25 5 5 5 5 5 5
6 12 16 22 5 5 5 5 5 5
6 12 16 22 5 5 5 5 5 12
6 11 15 22 5 5 5 14 5 12
6 11 10 18 5 5 5 14 13 12
6 11 14 18 5 5 5 14 13 12
6 11 14 18 5 5 5 14 13 15
6 11 14 14 5 5 10 14 13 15
6 11 17 14 5 3 10 14 13 15
6 11 15 14 5 3 10 14 13 15
6 11 15 14 5 3 10 14 13 12
6 11 15 14 6 4 10 14 13 12
6 11 15 14 6 4 10 14 13 12
0 11 15 14 6 4 10 14 13 12

I don’t have the decell fueling shut off as far as I know. Like I said I have Dons flash and I don’t think he shuts it off. I was thinking its might be caused by the change from 0 then -2 in the timing changes and on the fuel side the small number @ 0% then the jump to a much larger number in the 2% column. You would think it should go like 5 then 8 then 12 in order to be smooth. Not a drastic jump in %. Can you guys email me a fuel map? I'd love to see what yours looks like if you don't mind? I'm hopeful I can smooth this girl out. [email protected]

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2020 Ducati V4S Streetfighter On Order

Last edited by Somefun; 10-21-2019 at 10:24 AM.
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post #8 of 18 Old 10-21-2019, 11:26 AM
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Save that map so that you can go back to it if you don't like what happens when you do the following. I'm assuming that you don't have a live-time air/fuel ratio gauge.

Start by zeroing out the 0% and 2% columns everywhere above 2000 rpm (don't mess with idle for now). Make the 5% column halfway between the new 2% column and the existing 10% column just to make sure there isn't an abrupt transition in that area. Test-ride. Pay attention to that near-shut-throttle situation. Get it into whatever RPM range you are working on at steady cruise then gently ease the throttle shut and back open to your steady-speed-cruise throttle position, and see what happens.

Probably this won't make much difference. If so ... Go further. Take 4 out of the 0% and 2% columns (they will now be negative numbers) and take (let's say) 2 out of the 5% column. (Make the change in the 5% column half what it is in the other two.)

Keep going until you go too far. Seriously. Don't be surprised if you have to take 20% or 30% out of it. You will not hurt the engine at 2% throttle! Probably what will happen is that it will start surging or missing in a certain RPM range. That means you have reached the lean-misfire limit in that RPM range. It's practically certain that this will not be the same throughout the RPM range. Add 5% back in that RPM range only and stop making changes in that RPM range. You can keep going in other RPM ranges until you find the lean-misfire limit in those RPM ranges ... keep going until you are done ... then do some manual blending and interpolating as needed.

I have observed that it is very common for tuners to aim for a certain air/fuel ratio everywhere in the entire speed and load map and then think "it's perfect" ... but it's wrong. Even a forced-induction engine only needs detonation and meltdown protection at higher engine loads. If the throttle is not at 100% (complication explained below) then the rider is not asking for all the engine can deliver, so there's no point tuning for max power output ... tune it for driveability and fuel consumption. (Note: The complication in our situation is that we know the engine makes almost full power with the main throttles only 30% open ... that's how they come from the factory. But what it tells us is that you probably only need to start paying attention to thermal or detonation protection beyond let's say 20% throttle position. Hence, when doing the procedure above, don't touch any of the 20% and above columns - focus on 0, 2, and 5, and perhaps tweak the 10% column if you want to do some blending and smoothing)

My race bike (which is not an H2! it is a Yamaha R3) has a canned-reflash ECU in it but also a Power Commander ... and my air/fuel ratio gauge. Even there, I leaned out part throttle. There is simply no need for running 12:1 air/fuel ratio at part load. Granted, that's not much of the time on that bike, but why not make it right?
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post #9 of 18 Old 10-21-2019, 11:40 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
Save that map so that you can go back to it if you don't like what happens when you do the following. I'm assuming that you don't have a live-time air/fuel ratio gauge.

Start by zeroing out the 0% and 2% columns everywhere above 2000 rpm (don't mess with idle for now). Make the 5% column halfway between the new 2% column and the existing 10% column just to make sure there isn't an abrupt transition in that area. Test-ride. Pay attention to that near-shut-throttle situation. Get it into whatever RPM range you are working on at steady cruise then gently ease the throttle shut and back open to your steady-speed-cruise throttle position, and see what happens.

Probably this won't make much difference. If so ... Go further. Take 4 out of the 0% and 2% columns (they will now be negative numbers) and take (let's say) 2 out of the 5% column. (Make the change in the 5% column half what it is in the other two.)

Keep going until you go too far. Seriously. Don't be surprised if you have to take 20% or 30% out of it. You will not hurt the engine at 2% throttle! Probably what will happen is that it will start surging or missing in a certain RPM range. That means you have reached the lean-misfire limit in that RPM range. It's practically certain that this will not be the same throughout the RPM range. Add 5% back in that RPM range only and stop making changes in that RPM range. You can keep going in other RPM ranges until you find the lean-misfire limit in those RPM ranges ... keep going until you are done ... then do some manual blending and interpolating as needed.

I have observed that it is very common for tuners to aim for a certain air/fuel ratio everywhere in the entire speed and load map and then think "it's perfect" ... but it's wrong. Even a forced-induction engine only needs detonation and meltdown protection at higher engine loads. If the throttle is not at 100% (complication explained below) then the rider is not asking for all the engine can deliver, so there's no point tuning for max power output ... tune it for driveability and fuel consumption. (Note: The complication in our situation is that we know the engine makes almost full power with the main throttles only 30% open ... that's how they come from the factory. But what it tells us is that you probably only need to start paying attention to thermal or detonation protection beyond let's say 20% throttle position. Hence, when doing the procedure above, don't touch any of the 20% and above columns - focus on 0, 2, and 5, and perhaps tweak the 10% column if you want to do some blending and smoothing)

My race bike (which is not an H2! it is a Yamaha R3) has a canned-reflash ECU in it but also a Power Commander ... and my air/fuel ratio gauge. Even there, I leaned out part throttle. There is simply no need for running 12:1 air/fuel ratio at part load. Granted, that's not much of the time on that bike, but why not make it right?
Ok sounds good Go thank you! I was under the impression that if I go with say a -2 in the 0% then like a 8 in the 2% the jump in fuel might be the cause because it was such a jump in numbers.

2009 Monster Energy ZX14
2011 ZX10R Full Ohlines, BST Rims
2013 Kawasaki ZX636 Track Weapon
2015 H2 Full Custom Akrpovic & BST CF Wheels
2019 Ducati V4 Panigale Speciale
2017 Ducati 1299S Anniversairo
2015 KTM 1290 Super Duke R
2018 Husqvarna FS450 Super Moto
2017 Kawasaki Z125 Pro
2020 Ducati V4S Streetfighter On Order
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post #10 of 18 Old 10-21-2019, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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So I changed the timing map to be All 0 from 0% to 40% throttle and then lowered the fuel column 0% and 2% tables and holy crap! She’s already way smoother! I’m thrilled for sure! Thanks for the help guys I really appreciate it. I’m gonna keep at it and see how good I can get her. I think your right Gofaster where the tuners are looking for max power where we would rather have max ride ability.

2009 Monster Energy ZX14
2011 ZX10R Full Ohlines, BST Rims
2013 Kawasaki ZX636 Track Weapon
2015 H2 Full Custom Akrpovic & BST CF Wheels
2019 Ducati V4 Panigale Speciale
2017 Ducati 1299S Anniversairo
2015 KTM 1290 Super Duke R
2018 Husqvarna FS450 Super Moto
2017 Kawasaki Z125 Pro
2020 Ducati V4S Streetfighter On Order

Last edited by Somefun; 10-22-2019 at 09:53 AM.
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