Carbon rims - okay? - Kawasaki Ninja H2 Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 11-12-2017, 10:58 PM Thread Starter
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Carbon rims - okay?

Not quite tires/tyres but rims.
moved discussion from:
https://www.ninjah2.org/forum/ninja-h...ld-log-21.html
...so not to drag the great Envied thread off-topic.





Quote:
I love the thicker spokes but can't get pictures out of my head of carbon wheels tearing the centres out. I think our local roads have way too many random pot-holes to be confident enough to run carbon but on the track you should only see performance gains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted10R View Post
I put over 30,000km's on my BST wheels, with probably 400+ passes in the 1/4 mile with my zx10r. I live in Canada where winter ruins the roads and never had a single issue with them.

The bikes destroying them at the track are 500-600+whp, and even that is a rarity. I have seen magnesium wheels get damaged very easily, and they are standard on a few bikes.
Truely awesome you have not had a problem and I sincerely hope you never do but it's certainly not only 500hp monsters that have had problems, the Internet is littered with stories about sub 200hp track bikes doing this on good race surfaces.

...and magnesium isn't much of a comparison. They have stopped using mag rims in World Superbike (WSBK) and in many other competitions too. In our local LSR rules they "don't recommend" (whatever that really means).

"Magnesium wheels are not recommended and, if used, shall have an initial Zyglo certificate and stamp available. Zyglo inspections made with tires mounted are accepted. Wheels are to be re-inspected if any adverse condition arises." -- 2017 Rule Book Dry Lakes Racers Australia

Brembo make some of the best magnesium rims in the world under the Marchesini brand, you need deep pockets and I'm pretty sure the MotoGP guys just toss them away nearly as often as they change tyres.

I'm pretty sure that both MotoGP and WSBK both stopped the use of carbon rims a few years ago, not to say they won't come back at some point.

Carbon wheels look amazing and I understand the performance advantage of something the will turn-in faster with less gyro and accelerate faster with less rotational mass... but as mentioned, the exploded pictures that everyone likes to share when there is a failure give me a twitch.

Some of these pictures are getting quite old and I'm sure the companies and their technology is in constant development too as they don't want any failures, ever. I get that.

I live near Carbon Revolution and have watched their progress over the last 10 years. They have come a long way in that time and produce some of the world's best wheels now. It's their wheels you can get optioned on a Shelby Mustang (at a price!).
They are even using ceramic coating (think space shuttle tiles) on the insides of the rims to protect from brake heat and their rims are forged under very high pressures, not laid out in molds.

I wonder if any of the bike rim manufacturers are going to anything like this level of research, development and production values?
...or are they just knocking out carbon rims and letting the owners test them?
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post #2 of 41 Old 11-13-2017, 01:04 PM
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Could some of you guys post pictures of the rims you have seen that failed? I would google them but this Iraq internet only lets me look at certain things.
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post #3 of 41 Old 11-13-2017, 02:16 PM
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Be safe over there.Thank You for serving
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post #4 of 41 Old 11-13-2017, 03:21 PM
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Ayjayef, the fastest and most powerful bikes on the planet still use carbon wheels to this day, running 6 second 1/4 mile passes at over 225mph, and have been 311mph on a Turbo Hayabusa. I do understand there has been failures, but who is to say what actually caused the problem. Was it because the rim failed? Was the rim in a crash before hand? Improper installation? etc etc. I have had carbon rims on two separate bikes now with no signs of a problem.

Years back at a bike show, a dealer had a BST rim, literally all weekend this bare rim was thrown in the air and landed on the concrete floor probably 100+ times, and it never cracked or broke lol.

Brocks performance released a statement in regards to what to look for if a failure is possible. I mean if you smacked a pot hole and damaged your rim, would you try to fix and or replace it? Or would you continue to use it. Problem is some people are stubborn and wont spend the money to replace what might have been damaged already, then when a failure occurs they leave that piece of information out and blame the company.

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post #5 of 41 Old 11-13-2017, 06:15 PM
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Too bad ya don't have yer H2 over there...let some of those Iraqi guys take her for spin!
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post #6 of 41 Old 11-13-2017, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ayjayef View Post
Not quite tires/tyres but rims.
moved discussion from:
https://www.ninjah2.org/forum/ninja-h...ld-log-21.html
...so not to drag the great Envied thread off-topic.










Truely awesome you have not had a problem and I sincerely hope you never do but it's certainly not only 500hp monsters that have had problems, the Internet is littered with stories about sub 200hp track bikes doing this on good race surfaces.

...and magnesium isn't much of a comparison. They have stopped using mag rims in World Superbike (WSBK) and in many other competitions too. In our local LSR rules they "don't recommend" (whatever that really means).

"Magnesium wheels are not recommended and, if used, shall have an initial Zyglo certificate and stamp available. Zyglo inspections made with tires mounted are accepted. Wheels are to be re-inspected if any adverse condition arises." -- 2017 Rule Book Dry Lakes Racers Australia

Brembo make some of the best magnesium rims in the world under the Marchesini brand, you need deep pockets and I'm pretty sure the MotoGP guys just toss them away nearly as often as they change tyres.

I'm pretty sure that both MotoGP and WSBK both stopped the use of carbon rims a few years ago, not to say they won't come back at some point.

Carbon wheels look amazing and I understand the performance advantage of something the will turn-in faster with less gyro and accelerate faster with less rotational mass... but as mentioned, the exploded pictures that everyone likes to share when there is a failure give me a twitch.

Some of these pictures are getting quite old and I'm sure the companies and their technology is in constant development too as they don't want any failures, ever. I get that.

I live near Carbon Revolution and have watched their progress over the last 10 years. They have come a long way in that time and produce some of the world's best wheels now. It's their wheels you can get optioned on a Shelby Mustang (at a price!).
They are even using ceramic coating (think space shuttle tiles) on the insides of the rims to protect from brake heat and their rims are forged under very high pressures, not laid out in molds.

I wonder if any of the bike rim manufacturers are going to anything like this level of research, development and production values?
...or are they just knocking out carbon rims and letting the owners test them?
Carbon Revolution uses
RTM
to construct their wheels - so does Rotobox. Rotobox also has all for their wheels independently tested, to verify their in-house testing.

The carbon fiber motorcycle wheels of today are vastly improved from just 5 or so years ago, not only in design, but in material advancements.

Some people prefer the 'security' of a metal wheel...



I am (personally) not one of those people.

Brock
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post #7 of 41 Old 11-13-2017, 10:55 PM
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A prohibition in racing doesn't necessarily mean there is a technical problem with whatever they are prohibiting. It can be for cost containment as much as for anything else.

I have magnesium rims on my race bike. Carbon fiber is not allowed ... and it's simply because in the vintage racing class that the bike is eligible for, the rulebook doesn't allow it because in the time period that the bike was originally built and was originally raced in, carbon fiber rims didn't exist but magnesium rims did. Back in 1989 (cutoff year for the class) someone could have rung up Dymag and had them make the same rims back then that I have now.

Magnesium will corrode very quickly if unprotected, and if involved in a fire, it will burn and can make the fire near impossible to put out until it burns up. You can't put out a magnesium fire with water. Those are potential rationales for disallowing magnesium rims. So, I am careful with who changes my tires, and I certainly don't do it myself with hand tools, and I don't roll the rims around on a concrete floor without tires on them (I saw someone do that to a Marchesini wheel and cringed!), and I don't run the bike over curbs or through potholes, and I pay attention to the tire pressure. And try not to set stuff on fire.

If you have an expensive set of wheels, you have to take care of them and be careful with them no matter what they're made of. With that in mind, I wouldn't be concerned about wheels from one of the known-good reputable manufacturers, and I would include BST, Rotobox, Marchesini, and Dymag as known reputable wheel manufacturers. I'm probably forgetting some. Generic no-name copycat made in C***a ... no thanks.

Can you break a wheel from one of those manufacturers? Sure. Everything has limits to what it can withstand. I've seen a stock front wheel on a GSXR break in a crash on the street ... the bike slid into a curb. (Lots of other stuff got broken besides the wheels. Rider - who was running from the cops - was more or less ok although obviously in a heap of trouble.) I put a massive dent in a car wheel by hitting a big rock.
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Last edited by GoFaster; 11-13-2017 at 10:57 PM.
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post #8 of 41 Old 11-14-2017, 03:49 AM
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I think the racing ban is a homologation issue. I also had magnesium Marchesini wheels on my old Hayabusa. Strangely these are ok for racing. What a lot of people forget is that magnesium is very reactive and needs crack testing and chromite coating every couple of years. Chip the paint off one and the metal quickly turns to powdery oxide. In terms of longevity and robustness the carbon wheel is a better product.
There are production bikes with magnesium wheels, the R1 for example, I don't know what extra advice Yamaha is giving R1 owners but if they aren't then they should.

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Last edited by BobC; 11-14-2017 at 03:52 AM.
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post #9 of 41 Old 11-14-2017, 07:21 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock View Post
Some people prefer the 'security' of a metal wheel...
I am (personally) not one of those people.
Looks like a stock ZX14 rim on an extended swingarm bike with a sticky track tyre on it... all sorts of potential abuse and made worse if those custom colours were powder coated and oven baked by Jim-Bob's paint down the street.

There is no shortage of smashed-up alloy cast rims at any wreckers (breakers) but most of those came to a sudden stop against a non-movable object. There are just as many "D" shaped rims after an accident but it's pretty rare to see them break the centres out like the picture above.

I get that there are good and bad in all designs and materials and depending on its use (and abuse) but in all the things that have ever happened to me on a motorcycle, total rim collapse isn't one of them.


As requested by Envied...









...and while not a bike rim, this hybrid rim is interesting. Carbon rim okay, alloy spokes destroyed... but still holding (bolted?) to the carbon okay.



I'm not really trying to start a religious war for or against carbon, as mentioned I personally get a twitch when I see these (mostly old) images and was curious what the board consensus was.

I really do like the look of these new Rotobox "heavy spoke" and with a few early failures I'm sure BST have upped their game in design too.
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post #10 of 41 Old 11-14-2017, 11:36 AM
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CF rims are awesome, I love mine.
just don't hit anything cause they won't survive the impact.




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