Aftermarket SC bolts issue - fix ? - Page 6 - Kawasaki Ninja H2 Forum
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post #51 of 88 Old 12-01-2017, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by trenace View Post
@Turbo329 : That sure is more than enough degreasing to do it. Guess that leaves it down to whether the "N/A" rating for oil resistance means that grade can't necessarily take the oil or whether vibratory (not necessarily the right word) loads are just too much with the later Bear gear, or whether that grade needs primer with the metals involved.

I mis-stated above: not all grades require primer with stainless, only some, and I don't know composition involved here.
.
No prob man. I understood what you were saying. It really is an enigma. I do know for a fact that when a rotating part is not balanced it causes issues such as what we're experiencing. I'm tempted to send my gears out to a machinist to see if they can be balanced. .....just to see if that would help.

The longest I've gone is the 8 months. In my case, I can just pull the clutch every 3 months during riding season and re-torque. I think it's only an issue for the guys that don't really care to touch the bike that often or who simply don't know how to work on the bike. For guys that work on them it's more of an inconvenience to perform the preventative maintenance once or twice a season.

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post #52 of 88 Old 12-01-2017, 09:58 PM
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As opinion, a torque did not likely occur sufficient to break any red Loctite. Rather, for some reason, and as observed, the Loctite disappeared or lost integrity, or never really had it despite the extremely careful degreasing.
Fair statement. When I pulled the bolt out for the first time to install RG62, there wasn't any visible loctite from the factory either. It would seem that the oil is just breaking it down over time, and it comes down to fitment why the Bear gear backs out and the OEM doesn't.
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post #53 of 88 Old 12-01-2017, 10:06 PM
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I'm tempted to run a non-slip washer but after hearing about the bolts that are breaking off in the shaft it gave me pause.

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post #54 of 88 Old 12-01-2017, 10:12 PM Thread Starter
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BTW i have contacted a number of sprocket designers / manufacturers to potentially manufacture sprockets with a higher tolerance than the ones currently available in an attempt to cure the issue.

One of them is the same company that manufactures the gears / transmissions for the most powerful Nissan GTR's in the world!
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post #55 of 88 Old 12-02-2017, 12:39 AM
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I hear some good stabs at this let me add my $.02. Keeping in mind the division of kawi that engineered the SC was the gas turbine division and the space and weight limitations of the package itself. For the job it does the SC is very small and light so within those constraints how much wiggle room did the engineers build into the design? 10%-20% max?

I think a couple of things are at play, the first being the gyroscopic effect. Which is the exact same effect that we use to counter-steer the bike at speed. The rotating mass of the turbine spinning at ~150,000 rpm on a shaft is one heck of a gyro. So as the bike pivots along its axis where the tires meet the ground (Think Knee Dragging) this gyro is generating massive torsional forces onto the shaft as we force it thru an arc as the bike moves from side to side.

With the forces at play if we viewed it in action with ultra high speed cameras we would observe the turbine and shaft to be squirming around like a spaghetti noodle and the turbine blades flapping like a plastic pinwheel. Bottom line being that although we see metal as something very hard the forces in there make it a very violent place. Add in additional heat due to pressure over-spinning it and it may just be over the edge of its design metallurgically. The deformations occurring throughout will cause the bolts to come apart no matter what you do.

The second less obvious possibility is the gearing change itself, All mechanical gears create vibrations. These vibrations are mathematical in nature and must be taken into account as the spinning parts are already under huge stress. Changing the ratios may very well create some destructive harmonic forces within the assembly. I'm sure the engineers had all this accounted for in the design.

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post #56 of 88 Old 12-02-2017, 03:45 AM
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There is lots of weird sh!t going on in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo329 View Post
I'm tempted to run a non-slip washer but after hearing about the bolts that are breaking off in the shaft it gave me pause.

Don't do it!

Using a soft metal washer against a hardened shaft will do nothing to stop the bolt backing out and will only ensure that the internal oil hole doesn't line-up anymore... creating a whole new set of problems with an unoiled drive chain.

@Turbo329
The 272 loctite you used is slightly higher temperature and slightly higher strength than the 263 but is not oil resistant.

Loctite 272
http://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/Sh...EN&plant=WERCS

24 hour cure for steel.
Chemical/Solvent Resistance Motor oil - at 87C -- 62% strength (I assume much worse at engine oil temperatures)
Rated for 230C (450F)


Loctite 263
http://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/Sh...EN&plant=WERCS

3 hour cure for steel (but hey, longer won't hurt)
Chemical/Solvent Resistance Motor oil 125C -- 75% strength after 5000 hours.
Rated for 180C (360F)

The 263 should be less likely to wash away in oil and should be a better choice for this bolt. As diligent as your application was, I think you simply used the wrong loctite.


Loctite 680
http://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/Sh...EN&plant=WERCS

7 day cure for steel
Chemical/Solvent Resistance Motor oil 125C -- >100% strength (this one gets stronger with heat)
Rated for 180C (356F)

Gives best resistance to dynamic, axial and radial loads. Recommended for retaining shafts, gears, pulleys, and similar cylindrical parts.

This one that @kawah2 posted is interesting, being made for shafts, gears and pulleys and gets stronger with heat and oil. Maybe putting this on the shafts would keep the gears in place and negate the problem altogether?
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post #57 of 88 Old 12-02-2017, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ayjayef View Post
There is lots of weird sh!t going on in this thread.



Don't do it!

Using a soft metal washer against a hardened shaft will do nothing to stop the bolt backing out and will only ensure that the internal oil hole doesn't line-up anymore... creating a whole new set of problems with an unoiled drive chain.

@Turbo329
The 272 loctite you used is slightly higher temperature and slightly higher strength than the 263 but is not oil resistant.

Loctite 272
http://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/Sh...EN&plant=WERCS

24 hour cure for steel.
Chemical/Solvent Resistance Motor oil - at 87C -- 62% strength (I assume much worse at engine oil temperatures)
Rated for 230C (450F)


Loctite 263
http://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/Sh...EN&plant=WERCS

This one that @kawah2 posted is interesting, being made for shafts, gears and pulleys and gets stronger with heat and oil. Maybe putting this on the shafts would keep the gears in place and negate the problem altogether?
Fair point about the oil resistance but the blue loc-tite that Kawi recommends for the stock gear is neither strong nor oil resistant.

Good point about the washer causing the oil holes not to line up.
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post #58 of 88 Old 12-02-2017, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawiguy454 View Post
I hear some good stabs at this let me add my $.02. Keeping in mind the division of kawi that engineered the SC was the gas turbine division and the space and weight limitations of the package itself. For the job it does the SC is very small and light so within those constraints how much wiggle room did the engineers build into the design? 10%-20% max?

I think a couple of things are at play, the first being the gyroscopic effect. Which is the exact same effect that we use to counter-steer the bike at speed. The rotating mass of the turbine spinning at ~150,000 rpm on a shaft is one heck of a gyro. So as the bike pivots along its axis where the tires meet the ground (Think Knee Dragging) this gyro is generating massive torsional forces onto the shaft as we force it thru an arc as the bike moves from side to side.

With the forces at play if we viewed it in action with ultra high speed cameras we would observe the turbine and shaft to be squirming around like a spaghetti noodle and the turbine blades flapping like a plastic pinwheel. Bottom line being that although we see metal as something very hard the forces in there make it a very violent place. Add in additional heat due to pressure over-spinning it and it may just be over the edge of its design metallurgically. The deformations occurring throughout will cause the bolts to come apart no matter what you do.

The second less obvious possibility is the gearing change itself, All mechanical gears create vibrations. These vibrations are mathematical in nature and must be taken into account as the spinning parts are already under huge stress. Changing the ratios may very well create some destructive harmonic forces within the assembly. I'm sure the engineers had all this accounted for in the design.

This.
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post #59 of 88 Old 12-02-2017, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
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No offense to Bear Racing as i'm sure these sprockets are not easy to make, but i showed his SC sprockets to a business owner of an engineering company that has engineered similar products over the last 30 years and they were NOT impressed with the quality!

They also suggested potentially trying wire EDM.
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post #60 of 88 Old 12-02-2017, 03:20 PM
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I had several sets if gears made when the price was $2500, couldnt bring myself to pay that ,They fit like factory, i still think they have the potential to move, any movement on the spline will walk a bolt out or break it eventually,
Actually thinking of getting Bear gears for a current build as the new ones look like a tight fit rather than getting my centre altered
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